Australian Politics Forum - Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...

Marla

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Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...
Reply #15 - May 30^th, 2016 at 11:27am

As for the "controversy" that he should offer an apology for what was unquestionably one of history’s greatest war crimes let me know when Japan's prime minister travels to anywhere USA and apologizes for the Bataan Death March and/or the Rape of Nanking

Must have missed that one, Herb.

Anyway, please go back to your revisionist bullshit.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...
Reply #16 - May 30^th, 2016 at 11:58am

Marla wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 11:27am:

As for the "controversy" that he should offer an apology for what was unquestionably one of history’s greatest war crimes let me know when Japan's prime minister travels to anywhere USA and apologizes for the Bataan Death March and/or the Rape of Nanking

Must have missed that one, Herb.

Huh?

Are you still insisting it was a WAR CRIME when it's entire purpose was to save the lives of tens of thousands of Japanese soldiers ... and Japanese civilians ... and allied prisoners of war ... and US servicemen ... and to save tens of thousands of cities, towns, and villages from total Annihilation?

Tell me, O Thorny Rose from the Snow Country - is the captain of a life-boat after the sinking of a ship at sea guilty of murder when he purposefully kicks off those in the water who are trying to pull themselves up into the boat - because their extra weight would sink the life-raft and cause them all to drown?

Don't jitter-bug around this question with some cockamamie female 'logic'.

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Bobby.

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Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...
Reply #17 - May 30^th, 2016 at 8:01pm

The Heartless Felon wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 6:48am:

Bobby. wrote on May 29^th, 2016 at 10:59pm:

I think the atomic bombs were dropped to stop Russia from invading Western Europe -

it made Stalin think twice.

It had nothing to do with Japan which was already defeated.

Bobby, WW1 was ended by an armistice, which was a political act. The American military was against this; they believed that Germany needed to be defeated in Germany. In later years, some Germans insisted that Germany had not lost the war but had achieved an honourable peace and, in fact, had shortened the war.
We know what happened after that...
In WW2, the Americans were not going to make the same mistake. Japan had to be defeated in Japan. The estimated cost in casualties of an invasion of Japan has been variously put at up to 1.5 million.
Do the sums...

You believe the official line -

that's just not true.

The Russians had a much bigger Army than the western powers & could have overrun them in 1945.
Stalin wanted to take all of Europe.

The bomb changed Stalin's mind.

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Lionel Edriess

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Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...
Reply #18 - May 30^th, 2016 at 8:41pm

The alternative to the 'Bomb' was land warfare. It was a difficult decision and not taken lightly.

After their experiences in the Pacific, the Americans were loathe to engage in such an action, for a number of reasons, chief of which was the expected casualties on both sides - including citizens,

Japan is not a continent like Europe, Australia or the US. it would have meant island-hopping all the way.

Recommended viewing is 'The Pacific', a 2010 HBO miniseries. It might well bestow a few insights. Eastwood's movies on Iwo Jima provide others.

The bombs, unfortunately, killed hundreds of thousands. Without their use, multiples of that number would have suffered horrific deaths.

Very likely, Japan would have starved to death before it was beaten.

The Japanese were very different foes to the Germans.

Have the possible consequences of the 'Cold War' escaped anyone? Or the real threat presented by today's Jihadists?

WWII is ancient history.

Was Fromelles, now in it's centenary, any less horrific?

Dip your hands in the steaming guts of war over the millennia, it's never 'nice'.

Take note, Marla, your own Civil War has killed more Americans than any other.

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Bobby.

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Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...
Reply #19 - May 30^th, 2016 at 8:52pm

Lionel Edriess wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 8:41pm:

The alternative to the 'Bomb' was land warfare. It was a difficult decision and not taken lightly.

After their experiences in the Pacific, the Americans were loathe to engage in such an action, for a number of reasons, chief of which was the expected casualties on both sides - including citizens,

Japan is not a continent like Europe, Australia or the US. it would have meant island-hopping all the way.

Recommended viewing is 'The Pacific', a 2010 HBO miniseries. It might well bestow a few insights. Eastwood's movies on Iwo Jima provide others.

The bombs, unfortunately, killed hundreds of thousands. Without their use, multiples of that number would have suffered horrific deaths.

Very likely, Japan would have starved to death before it was beaten.

The Japanese were very different foes to the Germans.

Have the possible consequences of the 'Cold War' escaped anyone? Or the real threat presented by today's Jihadists?

WWII is ancient history.

Was Fromelles, now in it's centenary, any less horrific?

Dip your hands in the steaming guts of war over the millennia, it's never 'nice'.

Take note, Marla, your own Civil War has killed more Americans than any other.

The USA didn't have to invade Japan.

Japan was already beaten.

Tokyo was a smoking ruin - & so were almost all their cities before the A bombs were dropped.

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GordyL

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Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...
Reply #20 - May 30^th, 2016 at 9:00pm

Bobby. wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 8:52pm:

Lionel Edriess wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 8:41pm:

The alternative to the 'Bomb' was land warfare. It was a difficult decision and not taken lightly.

After their experiences in the Pacific, the Americans were loathe to engage in such an action, for a number of reasons, chief of which was the expected casualties on both sides - including citizens,

Japan is not a continent like Europe, Australia or the US. it would have meant island-hopping all the way.

Recommended viewing is 'The Pacific', a 2010 HBO miniseries. It might well bestow a few insights. Eastwood's movies on Iwo Jima provide others.

The bombs, unfortunately, killed hundreds of thousands. Without their use, multiples of that number would have suffered horrific deaths.

Very likely, Japan would have starved to death before it was beaten.

The Japanese were very different foes to the Germans.

Have the possible consequences of the 'Cold War' escaped anyone? Or the real threat presented by today's Jihadists?

WWII is ancient history.

Was Fromelles, now in it's centenary, any less horrific?

Dip your hands in the steaming guts of war over the millennia, it's never 'nice'.

Take note, Marla, your own Civil War has killed more Americans than any other.

The USA didn't have to invade Japan.

Japan was already beaten.

Tokyo was a smoking ruin - & so were almost all their cities before the A bombs were dropped.

Yet they still hadn't surrendered.

You know the A bombs were a psychological weapon?
One massed raid by the USA would have done just as much damage to either city.

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miketrees Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6490 Gender:	Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ... Reply #21 - May 30^th, 2016 at 9:02pm Interesting Sir Bob. I had never seen that angle before,,, about Russia and the bomb.
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Bobby.

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Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...
Reply #22 - May 30^th, 2016 at 9:02pm

GordyL wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 9:00pm:

Yet they still hadn't surrendered.

You know the A bombs were a psychological weapon?
One massed raid by the USA would have done just as much damage to either city.

The Japanese leadership were insane -

they didn't care if everyone died
as long as they didn't surrender.

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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 112538 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ... Reply #23 - May 30^th, 2016 at 9:03pm miketrees wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 9:02pm: Interesting Sir Bob. I had never seen that angle before,,, about Russia and the bomb. Thanks - I have deeply researched this topic.
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Lionel Edriess Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1932 Gender:	Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ... Reply #24 - May 30^th, 2016 at 9:07pm Bobby. wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 8:52pm: ... Japan was already beaten. ... Tell that to Hiroo Onoda. He was never beaten. There were many more like him.
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Bobby.

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Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...
Reply #25 - May 30^th, 2016 at 9:14pm

Lionel Edriess wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 9:07pm:

Bobby. wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 8:52pm:

... Japan was already beaten. ...

Tell that to Hiroo Onoda. He was never beaten.

There were many more like him.

Tokyo 1945

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo

The Bombing of Tokyo (東京大空襲 Tōkyōdaikūshū?), often referred to as a series of firebombing raids, was conducted as part of the air raids on Japan by the United States Army Air Forces during the Pacific campaigns of World War II. The US first mounted a small-scale raid on Tokyo in April 1942. Strategic bombing and urban area bombing began in 1944 after the long-range B-29 Superfortress bomber entered service, first deployed from China and thereafter the Mariana Islands. B-29 raids from those islands began on 17 November 1944, and lasted until 15 August 1945, the day Japan capitulated.[1] The Operation Meetinghouse air raid of 9–10 March 1945 was later estimated to be the single most destructive bombing raid in history.[2]

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Lord Herbert

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Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...
Reply #26 - May 30^th, 2016 at 9:16pm

Bobby. wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 9:02pm:

GordyL wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 9:00pm:

Yet they still hadn't surrendered.

You know the A bombs were a psychological weapon?
One massed raid by the USA would have done just as much damage to either city.

The Japanese leadership were insane -

they didn't care if everyone died
as long as they didn't surrender.

Not just the leadership. The code of the Bushido warrior was fanatical among the ordinary soldiers.

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GordyL

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Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...
Reply #27 - May 30^th, 2016 at 9:52pm

Bobby. wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 9:03pm:

miketrees wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 9:02pm:

Interesting Sir Bob.

I had never seen that angle before,,, about Russia and the bomb.

Thanks - I have deeply researched this topic.

It needed to be dropped on Japan to make them surrender but it also needed to be field tested and to give Stalin a demonstration.

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Prime Minister for Canyons Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26906 Canberra Gender:	Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ... Reply #28 - May 30^th, 2016 at 10:15pm As crazxy as he was even LeMay had said if the US had lost the war he'd be tried as a war criminal
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Thank god for Hiroshima and Nagasaki ...
Reply #29 - May 30^th, 2016 at 10:35pm

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on May 30^th, 2016 at 10:15pm:

As crazxy as he was even LeMay had said if the US had lost the war he'd be tried as a war criminal

He determined that high altitude bombing, for which the B-29 was specifically designed, was not effective due to the Trade Winds causing both aircraft and bombs to veer off target - so he decided on a campaign of low-level fire bombing with incendiaries, in the knowledge that many Japanese houses were built of paper and bamboo. That's why you see such vast areas of Tokyo burned out...

Back to the Enola Gay - it came in at HIGH altitude and alone, and was thus mistaken by the defences for a weather ship - and not worth the scarce fuel to intercept.

A great read also is "Fortress Without a Roof"... the story of Allied bombing of Germany and German-Occupied Europe in WWII.

"Hitler built a Fortress of Europe - but he forgot to design a roof over it"....

https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/aef7xwefy7is94/Fortress_Without_a_Roof_The_Al...

Also 'Nemesis'.... by Max Hastings

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Nemesis-Battle-1944-45-Max-Hastings/dp/0007219814

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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