Australian Politics Forum - Economic feasability of renewable energy

The_Barnacle

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Economic feasability of renewable energy
May 21^st, 2016 at 11:24am

The general public perception of renewable energy is often in terms of saving the environment and reducing global carbon dioxide emissions. While it is true that renewable energy provides great environmental benefits and may yet prove to be our main hope for decarbonization, it is just as true and often overlooked that renewable energy provides considerable economic and social benefits.

Solar PV is the largest renewable energy employer with 2.5 million jobs worldwide, up from 2.3 million at last count. According to IRENA’s 2014 renewable energy costs study, solar PV module prices have dropped more than 75 per cent since 2009 and residential solar PV systems are 65 per cent cheaper than in 2008.

Wind is another example where falling costs are creating new jobs. Employment in wind energy passed the 1 million jobs mark, up from 834,000 at last count. Onshore wind is now one of the most cost-competitive sources of electricity available with some projects now delivering electricity for as little as US four cents per kWh, again without financial support.

The new reality is that the cost of generating power from renewable energy sources has reached parity or dropped below the cost of fossil fuels for many technologies in many parts of the world. Biomass, hydropower, geothermal and onshore wind are all competitive with or cheaper than coal, oil and gas-fired power stations, even without financial support and despite falling oil prices. These low prices are making the business case for renewable energy stronger than ever.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adnan-z-amin/the-economics-of-renewabl_b_7452996.h...

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lee

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Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy
Reply #1 - May 21^st, 2016 at 12:23pm

'Most importantly, the total for the 12 months from December 2014 to November 2015 is only 1.418 GW. Because new installations remain below 1.5 GW, the monthly feed-in tariff reduction remains at 0.0 percent – meaning that the rates that apply for 20 years for new systems continue to be offered at the level of September 2015. The highest rate for the smallest arrays (below 10 kilowatts) is 12.31 cents per kilowatt-hour.

The lowest rate is now 10.7 cents because everything above 100 kilowatts must now be auctioned; the smaller feed-in tariffs below nine cents are no longer offered outside of the auction system.'
http://www.renewablesinternational.net/german-pv-in-2016/150/452/92493/

Wind UK
Energy Source Scale Type / Rate Tariff (p/kWh)
      Non-PV          < 15/01/16 > 8/2/16
'Wind >100 - 500kW    10.85 8.53
Wind >500kW - 1.5MW    5.89 5.46
Wind >1.5MW - 5MW       2.49 0.86'

http://www.fitariffs.co.uk/eligible/levels/

So if they are competitive why the need for feed in tariffs?

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The_Barnacle

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Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy
Reply #2 - May 21^st, 2016 at 12:53pm

lee wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 12:23pm:

So if they are competitive why the need for feed in tariffs?

A feed-in tariff is a rate paid for electricity fed back into the electricity grid from a designated renewable electricity generation source such as a rooftop solar panel system or wind turbine.

At present, feed-in tariff regulations for renewable energy exist in over 40 countries around the world and they are widely considered one of the most effective ways to increase solar energy uptake.

http://www.energymatters.com.au/rebates-incentives/feedintariff/

So in summary it is a way of encouraging more people to take up renewables.

The cost of PV battery storage is falling quickly and pretty soon it will be economical enough to be off the grid entirely.

http://reneweconomy.com.au/2015/tesla-already-forcing-down-battery-storage-price...

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lee

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Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy
Reply #3 - May 21^st, 2016 at 1:46pm

The_Barnacle wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 12:53pm:

A feed-in tariff is a rate paid for electricity fed back into the electricity grid from a designated renewable electricity generation source such as a rooftop solar panel system or wind turbine.

Yes, it goes to some of those homeowners who can generate Megawatts of power. Wink

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lee

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Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy
Reply #4 - May 21^st, 2016 at 3:07pm

Ivanpah Solar facts

'
is owned by Google, NRG Energy, and Brightsource, who have a market cap in excess of $500 billion.
received $1.6 billion in loan guarantees from the Department of Energy.
is paid four to five times as much per megawatt-hour as natural gas-powered plants.
is paid two to three times as much per megawatt-hour as other solar power producers.
has burned thousands of birds to death.
has delayed loan repayments.
is seeking over $500 million in grants to help pay off the guaranteed loans.
burns natural gas for 4.5 hours each morning to get its mojo going.

Brightsource, which is privately held, is owned by a virtual who’s who of those who don’t need subsidies from taxpayers and ratepayers.

In spite of all this, Ivanpah has fallen woefully short of its production targets. The managers’ explanation for why production came up 32 percent below expected output is the weather. In addition to raising questions about planning for uncertainty, it is not all that clear how a nine-percent drop in sunshine causes a 32-percent drop in production.

More bizarrely, the natural gas used to get the plant all warmed up and ready each day would be enough to generate over one quarter of the power actually produced from the solar energy.'

http://dailysignal.com/2016/03/29/taxpayers-are-footing-bill-for-solar-project-t...

Brightsource is a vocal supporter of Beyond Zero Emissions Australia.

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The_Barnacle

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Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy
Reply #5 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:09pm

lee wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 3:07pm:

More bizarrely, the natural gas used to get the plant all warmed up and ready each day would be enough to generate over one quarter of the power actually produced from the solar energy.'

Yes that is correct. The power plant produces 4 x the amount of energy that it consumes.

Note: Solar thermal plants do not use solar panels to directly convert sunshine to electricity; they use sunshine to boil water that then drives conventional turbines.

The Solar thermal plant described is innovative technology and at present isn't economically feasible. That may change over time however. After all, there was a time when solar panels and wind turbines weren't economically feasible.

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Rider

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Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy
Reply #6 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:38pm

lee wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 3:07pm:

Ivanpah Solar facts

'
is owned by Google, NRG Energy, and Brightsource, who have a market cap in excess of $500 billion.
received $1.6 billion in loan guarantees from the Department of Energy.
is paid four to five times as much per megawatt-hour as natural gas-powered plants.
is paid two to three times as much per megawatt-hour as other solar power producers.
has burned thousands of birds to death.
has delayed loan repayments.
is seeking over $500 million in grants to help pay off the guaranteed loans.
burns natural gas for 4.5 hours each morning to get its mojo going.

Brightsource, which is privately held, is owned by a virtual who’s who of those who don’t need subsidies from taxpayers and ratepayers.

In spite of all this, Ivanpah has fallen woefully short of its production targets. The managers’ explanation for why production came up 32 percent below expected output is the weather. In addition to raising questions about planning for uncertainty, it is not all that clear how a nine-percent drop in sunshine causes a 32-percent drop in production.

More bizarrely, the natural gas used to get the plant all warmed up and ready each day would be enough to generate over one quarter of the power actually produced from the solar energy.'

http://dailysignal.com/2016/03/29/taxpayers-are-footing-bill-for-solar-project-t...

Brightsource is a vocal supporter of Beyond Zero Emissions Australia.

Stupid tax sink Ivanpah just set fire to itself. Soon to be bankrupted it was probably an insurance job.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21592 Gender:	Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy Reply #7 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:49pm The_Barnacle wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:09pm: After all, there was a time when solar panels and wind turbines weren't economically feasible. If they are economically feasible why do they still rely on feed in tariffs?
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lee

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Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy
Reply #8 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 2:34pm

The_Barnacle wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:09pm:

The Solar thermal plant described is innovative technology and at present isn't economically feasible.

It may be innovative technology but it is not new technology. It is various older technologies used in new ways. The bugs of the individual system components should have been already worked out. Focussing mirrors, steam drive etc.

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lee

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Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy
Reply #9 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 2:37pm

Rider wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:38pm:

Stupid tax sink Ivanpah just set fire to itself. Soon to be bankrupted it was probably an insurance job.

' The plant works by using mirrors to focus sunlight on boilers at the top of three 459-foot towers, creating steam that drive turbines to produce electricity.

But some misaligned mirrors instead focused sunbeams on a different level of Unit 3, causing electrical cables to catch fire, San Bernardino County, California fire Capt. Mike McClintock said.'

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/mirrors-blamed-fire-worlds-largest-so...

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The_Barnacle

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Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy
Reply #10 - May 25^th, 2016 at 9:21pm

The_Barnacle wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 12:53pm:

lee wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 12:23pm:

So if they are competitive why the need for feed in tariffs?

At present, feed-in tariff regulations for renewable energy exist in over 40 countries around the world and they are widely considered one of the most effective ways to increase solar energy uptake.

lee wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:49pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:09pm:

After all, there was a time when solar panels and wind turbines weren't economically feasible.

If they are economically feasible why do they still rely on feed in tariffs?

see above

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lee

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Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy
Reply #11 - May 25^th, 2016 at 9:54pm

The_Barnacle wrote on May 25^th, 2016 at 9:21pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 12:53pm:

lee wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 12:23pm:

So if they are competitive why the need for feed in tariffs?

At present, feed-in tariff regulations for renewable energy exist in over 40 countries around the world and they are widely considered one of the most effective ways to increase solar energy uptake.

lee wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:49pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:09pm:

After all, there was a time when solar panels and wind turbines weren't economically feasible.

If they are economically feasible why do they still rely on feed in tariffs?

see above

So it is not a economics problem it is a political problem. A subsidy to corporations creating green energy who don't need it.Cute. Sounds like a green protection racket.

It raises the price of electricity above where it should be. Who do you think will be most affected by that? Those on limited incomes or the more well off?

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« Last Edit: May 25^th, 2016 at 10:10pm by lee »

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The_Barnacle

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Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy
Reply #12 - May 25^th, 2016 at 10:59pm

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2016 at 9:54pm:

So it is not a economics problem it is a political problem. A subsidy to corporations creating green energy who don't need it.Cute. Sounds like a green protection racket.

It raises the price of electricity above where it should be. Who do you think will be most affected by that? Those on limited incomes or the more well off?

The feed in tariff for new systems in Victoria (where I live) is just 5c/kWh. Hardly a protection racket.

And why shouldn't people be encouraged to use renewable energy? There are countless benefits to society, and it supports an innovative new industry. It always bemuses me that the neo cons are so against clean renewable energy. It is a classic case of cutting off their nose to spite their face.

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lee

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Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy
Reply #13 - May 25^th, 2016 at 11:24pm

The_Barnacle wrote on May 25^th, 2016 at 10:59pm:

lee wrote on May 25^th, 2016 at 9:54pm:

So it is not a economics problem it is a political problem. A subsidy to corporations creating green energy who don't need it.Cute. Sounds like a green protection racket.

It raises the price of electricity above where it should be. Who do you think will be most affected by that? Those on limited incomes or the more well off?

The feed in tariff for new systems in Victoria (where I live) is just 5c/kWh. Hardly a protection racket.

And why shouldn't people be encouraged to use renewable energy? There are countless benefits to society, and it supports an innovative new industry. It always bemuses me that the neo cons are so against clean renewable energy. It is a classic case of cutting off their nose to spite their face.

So what is the name of this commercial renewable corporation? You are not talking household solar are you?

It can't be Pacific Hydro, the windfarm people-

'Cooper’s evidence provides a valuable context for when the senate inquiry gets to its core business of exploring the adequacy of wind farm monitoring and compliance.

This includes the management and oversight of billions of dollars worth of subsidies created through the Renewable Energy Target scheme.'

[url]https://stopthesethings.com/2015/04/04/pacific-hydros-cape-bridgewater-wind-farm
-nightmare-unfolds-as-senate-inquiry-hits-portland/
[/url]
I'm not against renewable energy. I am against subsidies.

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Pho Huc

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Re: Economic feasability of renewable energy
Reply #14 - Jun 24^th, 2016 at 12:11pm

lee wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:49pm:

The_Barnacle wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:09pm:

After all, there was a time when solar panels and wind turbines weren't economically feasible.

If they are economically feasible why do they still rely on feed in tariffs?

Fo the same reason economically feasable coal mines demand diesel rebates.

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