Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 
Send Topic Print
400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election (Read 6726 times)
Bam
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 21905
Gender: male
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #45 - May 17th, 2016 at 2:11pm
 
lee wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 1:42pm:
Bam wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 12:38pm:
You have posted a cherrypicked chart that starts at 1998. Cherrypicking 1998 as a starting point is a favourite trick of the deniers. Why not start at 1999, 2000, 1997, 1996, 1995, 1994, 1993, 1992, 1991? Because you don't get the same effect, that's why.

2016 is smashing global records for the same reason that 1998 did - a very strong El Niño is causing massive amounts of sequestered heat to be released from the oceans. In 3 years, 5 at the most, you'll be cherrypicking a new set of data starting at 2015 or 2016.




If you really had a clue you would realise it ends in 2016 and works backwards to 1997, Do you want him to pontificate about 2017 temperatures?

It's a cherrypick - a point that you have not addressed. WHY choose THAT starting point? It's a CHERRYPICK. Deny it. Go on. I dare you.

I have also restored the text from my quoted post that you deleted in your response so you could quote it out of context. More cherrypicking!
Back to top
 

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
IP Logged
 
Bam
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 21905
Gender: male
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #46 - May 17th, 2016 at 2:24pm
 
Three Ways Climate Deniers Cherry-Pick Facts about Climate Change

Quote:
Find out the strategies climate deniers use to cloud the climate change consensus, and how to set the record straight.

For years, oil companies and special interest groups have financed campaigns to make people doubt the reality and seriousness of climate change, funneling money into conservative non-profits, think tanks, politicians, and climate-denial front groups. Let’s take the industrial businessmen and political moguls, the Koch brothers, who have invested tens of millions of dollars over the last fifteen years in efforts to deny climate change.

With the support of Big Oil companies and their allies, a small but vocal group of climate deniers has become as pesky as mosquitos on a summer night. The mystery is how. After all, the facts are clear and when you consider that 97 percent of climate scientists agree that man-made climate change is real, it’s hard to believe that anyone could claim anything else with a straight face.

So how have a few well-funded voices managed to mislead – or at least confuse – millions and block progress on one of the most important issues of our time? One thing these deniers have been good at is cherry-picking facts and misrepresenting data to tell a story with some of the most important points conveniently left out. Imagine a guy buying drinks for everyone at the bar – without mentioning he just mugged a stranger for the cash. You get the picture.

We decided to take a closer look. We hope that by calling out deniers’ strategies, we can begin to debunk their myths and get back to the reason we’re all here: to spread truth and implement climate change solutions.

1. Misrepresenting Data

A common climate denier tactic is focusing on a specific year in a data set, usually one that happens to be an outlier. A great example of this is the year 1998.

Nineteen-ninety-eight was one of the hottest years on record thanks to an unusually strong El Niño. That means when you pull a subset of climate data from 1998–2012 (as deniers often do), you’re starting at a record high point. And when you look at the years that follow – years that vary naturally in temperature with some falling well below the 1998 peak – the upward trend in temperatures wasn’t as visually obvious.

Visual data can be purposefully skewed or misrepresented. Let’s look at the chart below, which shows the global air temperature changes from 1998–2012. The red trend line on the chart isn’t a trend at all — it’s simply connecting the two dots on either side of the chart that show two yearly averages of global air temperature change. A trend line on this chart should, in fact, trend upwards. And if we started this chart with the year 1999, it would look quite different.

...
Quote:
Or if we zoom out even further, we see an even more obvious increase in average temperatures over time.

...
(continued)
Back to top
 

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
IP Logged
 
Bam
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 21905
Gender: male
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #47 - May 17th, 2016 at 2:24pm
 
Quote:
2. Cherry-Picking Facts

This is an especially tough one to crack because climate deniers often cite factual statistics. And factual statistics are factual statistics, right? Except when the statistics are taken out of context or missing pertinent information, making it hard to have an informed rebuttal ready.

Let’s take this statistic that’s often cited out of context: “The global mean temperature was 58.3 degrees Fahrenheit in 1998 (14.6 degrees Celsius) according to NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies. In 2012, it was 58.2 degrees (14.56 Celsius).”

The obvious conclusion here is that global warming stalled or even stopped during this period. And if you look at changing temperatures in just these 14 years, it does look like they rose at a slower rate than they did over the longer period from 1951—2012.

But remember, 1998 was an unusually hot year, which skews the analysis. Plus, when scientists looked at the data again in 2014 after two more years of rising temperatures, the overall picture changed. With a higher average temperature as an endpoint in 2014, the graph shows that overall average temperatures from 1998—2014 rose at nearly the same rate as in the second half of the twentieth century.

The bottom line: global warming didn’t stop between 1998—2012. Far from it. And if someone cites 1998 temperatures to make a point about climate change, chances are there are some missing facts.

That’s why it’s important to remember that when climate statistics are cited, context and complete data are necessary to understanding the full picture.

3. Dwelling on the Weather

Everyone loves to talk about the weather. It’s a safe-zone, and people care about it because it has a direct impact on our feelings and mood. One especially common tactic is for climate deniers to dwell on weather patterns over the course of a few days or even a year to make the case that climate change isn’t happening.

“You know its freezing outside, right?”  they might say, or “How can there be global warming when there’s a polar vortex?

Weather patterns will always vary, causing temperatures to be higher or lower than average from time to time, depending on factors like El Niño and other ocean processes, cloud variability, volcanic activity, and other natural cycles.

It’s the long-term range (30-plus year cycles) that scientists look at to determine real changes in the climate system, and the changes scientists see are unmistakable. It’s time for climate deniers to stop focusing on the day-to-day weather as an excuse for why the Earth isn’t warming. This will only harm us in the future.

Now You Know

So the next time you hear someone stating climate statistics that attempt to show the Earth isn’t warming or harping on the blizzard outside, you’ll be able to recognize if they are cherry-picking facts or skewing data. Just remember: all the data you need to prove them wrong can be found in the blink of an eye on reputable websites like NASA and NOAA.
Back to top
 

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
IP Logged
 
juliar
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 22966
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #48 - May 17th, 2016 at 2:30pm
 
My Goodness Gracious the poor Greenies are so confused and out of their depth despite their Google degrees in World Weather.

Now Greenies why don't you start just copying parts of the Greenies' KORAN, Agenda 21, and post that here ?



...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 19963
Gender: male
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #49 - May 17th, 2016 at 2:34pm
 
Bam wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 2:11pm:
It's a cherrypick - a point that you have not addressed. WHY choose THAT starting point? It's a CHERRYPICK. Deny it. Go on. I dare you.



OK, I admit it they cherry pick the end date, the most recent data and work back. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


BTW why don't you credit your source? What is it? DeSmogBlog, Skeptical Science? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Quote:
2016 is smashing global records for the same reason that 1998 did - a very strong El Niño is causing massive amounts of sequestered heat to be released from the oceans. In 3 years, 5 at the most, you'll be cherrypicking a new set of data starting at 2015 or 2016.


Wow, they are giving credit to a natural variation. Grin Grin Grin  And they can predict the future.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
juliar
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 22966
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #50 - May 17th, 2016 at 3:03pm
 
poor BAM,

you have tripped up over your own Greenie style lies and hypocrisy.

The year 1998 is chosen for sound reasons which, if you were able to, you could readily verify by doing a bit of searching.

Taking shorter periods is doing just what the lying hypocritical Greenies do to produce a totally incorrect result but when did the Greenies ever have any concern for the TRUTH ?

See, it is very well known that the Greenies are just a pretend thought bubble "political party" and are really working for the corrupt United Nations and so they just keep pumping out the lying United Nations One World Govt propaganda.

Hence the Greenies have zero credibility.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 19963
Gender: male
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #51 - May 17th, 2016 at 3:17pm
 
'The global average temperature of 62.45 degrees Fahrenheit for 1997 '

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/199713

'the average global temperature across land and ocean surface areas for 2015 was 0.90°C (1.62°F) above the 20th century average of 13.9°C (57.0°F)'

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/201513

1.62°F + 57.0°F = 58.62°F

That makes 2015 3.83°F cooler than 1997. That doesn't seem to be reflected in your graph. Why is that? Is NOAA lying?
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bam
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 21905
Gender: male
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #52 - May 17th, 2016 at 3:30pm
 
lee wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 3:17pm:
'The global average temperature of 62.45 degrees Fahrenheit for 1997 '

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/199713

'the average global temperature across land and ocean surface areas for 2015 was 0.90°C (1.62°F) above the 20th century average of 13.9°C (57.0°F)'

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/201513

1.62°F + 57.0°F = 58.62°F

That makes 2015 3.83°F cooler than 1997. That doesn't seem to be reflected in your graph. Why is that? Is NOAA lying?

Cherrypicking facts AGAIN. When will you learn?
Back to top
 

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
IP Logged
 
Bam
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 21905
Gender: male
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #53 - May 17th, 2016 at 3:35pm
 
juliar wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 3:03pm:
poor BAM,

you have tripped up over your own Greenie style lies and hypocrisy.

The year 1998 is chosen for sound reasons which, if you were able to, you could readily verify by doing a bit of searching.

Why won't you mention those "sound reasons"? Because there are none. I'm not going to waste my time searching for you. You made the point - YOU prove it.

juliar wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 3:03pm:
Taking shorter periods is doing just what the lying hypocritical Greenies do to produce a totally incorrect result but when did the Greenies ever have any concern for the TRUTH ?

I have never seen anyone "taking shorter periods" except the climate change denier set. For them, the majority of material they post on this topic has no year existing before 1997.
Back to top
 

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
IP Logged
 
Bam
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 21905
Gender: male
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #54 - May 17th, 2016 at 3:43pm
 
lee wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 2:34pm:
Bam wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 2:11pm:
It's a cherrypick - a point that you have not addressed. WHY choose THAT starting point? It's a CHERRYPICK. Deny it. Go on. I dare you.



OK, I admit it they cherry pick the end date, the most recent data and work back. Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

You are being facetious. You know very well that the cherrypick is the START date. 1998 ... 1998 ... any time you see 1998 or 1997 mentioned, you KNOW that's a cherrypick.

lee wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 2:34pm:
BTW why don't you credit your source? What is it? DeSmogBlog, Skeptical Science? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

I provided a link in the headline of the post.  Cheesy

lee wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 2:34pm:
Quote:
2016 is smashing global records for the same reason that 1998 did - a very strong El Niño is causing massive amounts of sequestered heat to be released from the oceans. In 3 years, 5 at the most, you'll be cherrypicking a new set of data starting at 2015 or 2016.


Wow, they are giving credit to a natural variation. Grin Grin Grin  And they can predict the future.


It's not hard once you watch the climate change deniers at work. They are so predictable.

All of the "facts" they post (and that you parrot without any apparent ability at critical thinking) are financed by vested interests (eg: Exxon Mobil, Koch brothers) and laundered money.
Back to top
 

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 19963
Gender: male
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #55 - May 17th, 2016 at 3:50pm
 
Bam wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 3:30pm:
Cherrypicking facts AGAIN. When will you learn?



They are historical facts. Not cherry picked at all, the information is publicly available. Please tell us how those temperatures can be so, 1997 was at that point deemed to be the hottest year evah, 2015 is supposed to be the hottest year evah but it is cooler than 1997. Those are the facts. Deal with it.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
lee
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 19963
Gender: male
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #56 - May 17th, 2016 at 4:03pm
 
Bam wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 3:43pm:
You are being facetious. You know very well that the cherrypick is the START date. 1998 ... 1998 ... any time you see 1998 or 1997 mentioned, you KNOW that's a cherrypick.



Nope that's just the lie Big Green spreads. Why else would it go all the way out to current data?

Bam wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 3:43pm:
I provided a link in the headline of the post



Nope but I did find a link attached to your long term graph. climate reality project. Grin Grin Grin

It even has a link to Bill Nye, the science guy. Except he's not - he;s a mechanical engineer.

Bam wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 2:24pm:
Just remember: all the data you need to prove them wrong can be found in the blink of an eye on reputable websites like NASA and NOAA.


And that is where I got my data. And now you want to throw it away.

Bam wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 3:43pm:
All of the "facts" they post (and that you parrot without any apparent ability at critical thinking) are financed by vested interests (eg: Exxon Mobil, Koch brothers) and laundered money.


That's funny. I use NOAA's "facts", but I don't use critical thinking. Whereas you presumably do use critical thinking but deny the facts.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
juliar
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 22966
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #57 - May 17th, 2016 at 5:23pm
 
Oh Bam,

I hate to contradict but YOU started the Greenie nonsense about how to fudge graphs.

I appreciate your difficulty in doing any valid searches for genuine info as you are used to just quoting the Greenies' propaganda.

And I realise a Google search is rather difficult to do.

I prefer to know the TRUTH but the TRUTH never enters a Greenies' mind and is actively avoided.

But now, just to do the very unusual act of injecting TRUTH into the discussion consider:-

Instead, both satellite data and independent balloon data show a near-zero trend from 1979 to 1997, followed by a well-known 1998 temp “spike” which is universally attributed to a Super-El- Niño.

It’s also worth remembering that about half of all estimated warming since 1900 occurred prior to the mid-1940s despite continuously rising CO2 levels. Also consider that, even today, about 97% of all current atmospheric CO2 derives from natural sources.


For an excellent explanation of the TRUTH about our normal weather behavior have a look at

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/08/21/the-new-york-times-global-warmi...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #58 - May 17th, 2016 at 6:33pm
 
We could of course go back further, much further and accuse Bam of cherry picking couldn't we... Roll Eyes

But we know the UN and NASA have agreed there is a pause and no substantial warming has occurred for almost 18 years even though their culprit gas has continued to increase despite their best efforts and countries taxing it.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Bam
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 21905
Gender: male
Re: 400 PPM Co2 Heats Up Election
Reply #59 - May 17th, 2016 at 8:01pm
 
lee wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 3:50pm:
Bam wrote on May 17th, 2016 at 3:30pm:
Cherrypicking facts AGAIN. When will you learn?



They are historical facts. Not cherry picked at all, the information is publicly available. Please tell us how those temperatures can be so, 1997 was at that point deemed to be the hottest year evah, 2015 is supposed to be the hottest year evah but it is cooler than 1997. Those are the facts. Deal with it.

I have already done so, but I will do so again since you seem to be a little slow. They are cherrypicked, and not even correct. Why focus on those two years? There is weather data available going back to the start of the 20th century. Why exclude 114 out of 116 years of data from the discussion? CHERRYPICKING!

You are doing exactly this:

Quote:
2. Cherry-Picking Facts

This is an especially tough one to crack because climate deniers often cite factual statistics. And factual statistics are factual statistics, right? Except when the statistics are taken out of context or missing pertinent information, making it hard to have an informed rebuttal ready.

Let’s take this statistic that’s often cited out of context: “The global mean temperature was 58.3 degrees Fahrenheit in 1998 (14.6 degrees Celsius) according to NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies. In 2012, it was 58.2 degrees (14.56 Celsius).

The obvious conclusion here is that global warming stalled or even stopped during this period. And if you look at changing temperatures in just these 14 years, it does look like they rose at a slower rate than they did over the longer period from 1951—2012.

But remember, 1998 was an unusually hot year, which skews the analysis. Plus, when scientists looked at the data again in 2014 after two more years of rising temperatures, the overall picture changed. With a higher average temperature as an endpoint in 2014, the graph shows that overall average temperatures from 1998—2014 rose at nearly the same rate as in the second half of the twentieth century.

The bottom line: global warming didn’t stop between 1998—2012. Far from it. And if someone cites 1998 temperatures to make a point about climate change, chances are there are some missing facts.

That’s why it’s important to remember that when climate statistics are cited, context and complete data are necessary to understanding the full picture.

Note the highlighted bit. You posted this (without checking it):

Quote:
'The global average temperature of 62.45 degrees Fahrenheit for 1997 '

https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/sotc/global/199713

'the average global temperature across land and ocean surface areas for 2015 was 0.90°C (1.62°F) above the 20th century average of 13.9°C (57.0°F)'

You, sir, are guilty as charged.

Back to top
 

You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 
Send Topic Print