Australian Politics Forum - Pakistani wife beaters

Karnal

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #90 - May 10^th, 2016 at 4:20pm

moses wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 3:55pm:

The N.T. also tells Christians to abhor evil. Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good

You missed out the rest of the passage, Moses.

Quote:

9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.c Do not be conceited.

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”d says the Lord. 20On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”e

21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

It doesn't mean what it says, right?

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moses

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #91 - May 10^th, 2016 at 4:26pm

Gandalf wrote
Quote:

your trying to shift the goalposts moses.

You are commanded to love your enemies - enemies are people, ie muslims.

Evil, is a force that emanates from satan or 'unGodliness' or some such. I'd be surprised if christian doctrine would conceive of a human who is "evil incarnate". No, from your point of view, Islam is the force of evil, but muslims (ie actual people) are your enemy, who (rather sadly) have fallen to the force of evil. And as your enemy, you are commanded to love them.

Rather sneaky of you to try and conflate "muslims" and "Islam" - or from your POV, 'enemies' and 'evil'

muslims are part and parcel of the overall package.

Just like Christians and Christianity, Buddhists and Buddhism, etc.

They all practice the tenets of their various faiths, if the doctrine of the faith is evil (as in islam), the practitioners become an inextricable component of the evilness.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #92 - May 10^th, 2016 at 4:30pm

moses wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 4:26pm:

muslims are part and parcel of the overall package.

Just like Christians and Christianity, Buddhists and Buddhism, etc.

They all practice the tenets of their various faiths, if the doctrine of the faith is evil (as in islam), the practitioners become an inextricable component of the evilness.

So tell me moses, who are your enemies, if not those who practice evil? Is there another category of humans worse than enemies?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #93 - May 10^th, 2016 at 4:34pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 4:16pm:

moses wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 3:55pm:

The N.T. also tells Christians to abhor evil

Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Abhor means?

Find repugnant, to loathe.

Then we have part of the the Lords prayer:

Matthew 6:13 lead us not into temptation, But deliver us from evil.

Christians most certainly would not be commanded to love evil, then have to pray to be delivered from it.

I still can see nothing which says Christians must love the utter evilness of islam.

your trying to shift the goalposts moses.

You are commanded to love your enemies - enemies are people, ie muslims.

Evil, is a force that emanates from satan or 'unGodliness' or some such. I'd be surprised if christian doctrine would conceive of a human who is "evil incarnate". No, from your point of view, Islam is the force of evil, but muslims (ie actual people) are your enemy, who (rather sadly) have fallen to the force of evil. And as your enemy, you are commanded to love them.

Rather sneaky of you to try and conflate "muslims" and "Islam" - or from your POV, 'enemies' and 'evil'

Well yes, but Moses sees it as his religious duty to hate apologists too. You know, all those Christians who want to feed the enemy or give him something to drink -

Kill them.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #94 - May 10^th, 2016 at 4:43pm

Mind you, I'd be interested to hear from moses what actual words he himself would use to describe his attitude towards muslims - would he openly say he 'hates' them, or advocate their annhialation? Well he's come close - he has expressed optimism that soon they will be bred out of existence. He may be studiously avoiding such language directly, and that might be his escape clause.

But somehow I can't see him agreeing that he must 'love' them.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #95 - May 10^th, 2016 at 4:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 4:43pm:

Mind you, I'd be interested to hear from moses what actual words he himself would use to describe his attitude towards muslims - would he openly say he 'hates' them, or advocate their annhialation? Well he's come close - he has expressed optimism that soon they will be bred out of existence. He may be studiously avoiding such language directly, and that might be his escape clause.

But somehow I can't see him agreeing that he must 'love' them.

Hate them. It's the new covenant.

Jesus died so that we may hate them.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Pakistani wife beaters Reply #96 - May 10^th, 2016 at 4:50pm amen
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98414	Re: Pakistani wife beaters Reply #97 - May 10^th, 2016 at 4:51pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 4:50pm: amen Exactly. Forgive us our trespasses so that we may forgive others who trespass against us, deliver us from evil, ban them, kill them, nuke them. Amen.
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freediver

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #98 - May 10^th, 2016 at 5:04pm

Karnal wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 2:33pm:

moses wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

Karnal wrote:Reply #56 - Yesterday at 6:22pm

Quote:

Have I missed something in Christian theology? Did your prophet tell you to love everybody as you love yourself, including your enemies, but give you an out for Mohammedans?

Please explain. Chapter and verse, thanks.

Glad to Karnal

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I'm curious. How do you interpret a statement like "thou shalt not tempt thy God" as a religious duty to hate the Muselman?

When Yeheshua was dying on the cross, he asked his Father to forgive those who put him up there for their ignorance. This is the most compelling example of the new "covenant" you've described, Moses. Not only does Yeheshua do away with the eye-for-an-eye rhetoric, he taught - and practiced - forgiveness, tolerance and love for all.

No exceptions. In fact, he even tells followers what to do if hurt by an enemy - don't fight back, turn the other cheek. Those who love their enemies receive God's peace. Those who don't, as Yehesua said, are not true disciples. He made this clear too: "not all who go in my name will enter the Kingdom of heaven".

Yehesua taught his followers to leave judgement to God. He did not make an exception for those who follow different belief systems. The New Testament is clear. "Judge not, as ye surely shall be judged".

Maybe it doesn't mean what it says, eh?

Karnal do you think that this discredits those who use the "fulfill the law of moses" verse to make Christianity look similar to, or worse than Islam?

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Karnal

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #99 - May 10^th, 2016 at 5:05pm

freediver wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 5:04pm:

Karnal wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 2:33pm:

moses wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

Karnal wrote:Reply #56 - Yesterday at 6:22pm

Quote:

Have I missed something in Christian theology? Did your prophet tell you to love everybody as you love yourself, including your enemies, but give you an out for Mohammedans?

Please explain. Chapter and verse, thanks.

Glad to Karnal

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I'm curious. How do you interpret a statement like "thou shalt not tempt thy God" as a religious duty to hate the Muselman?

When Yeheshua was dying on the cross, he asked his Father to forgive those who put him up there for their ignorance. This is the most compelling example of the new "covenant" you've described, Moses. Not only does Yeheshua do away with the eye-for-an-eye rhetoric, he taught - and practiced - forgiveness, tolerance and love for all.

No exceptions. In fact, he even tells followers what to do if hurt by an enemy - don't fight back, turn the other cheek. Those who love their enemies receive God's peace. Those who don't, as Yehesua said, are not true disciples. He made this clear too: "not all who go in my name will enter the Kingdom of heaven".

Yehesua taught his followers to leave judgement to God. He did not make an exception for those who follow different belief systems. The New Testament is clear. "Judge not, as ye surely shall be judged".

Maybe it doesn't mean what it says, eh?

Karnal do you think that this discredits those who use the "fulfill the law of moses" verse to make Christianity look similar to, or worse than Islam?

Can you rephrase your question, FD?

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freediver

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #100 - May 10^th, 2016 at 5:11pm

Karnal wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 3:55pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 3:52pm:

Karnal wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 2:36pm:

moses wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 1:53pm:

Karnal wrote Reply #62 - Yesterday at 2:33pm:

Quote:

I'm curious. How do you interpret a statement like "thou shalt not tempt thy God" as a religious duty to hate the Muselman?

When Yeheshua was dying on the cross, he asked his Father to forgive those who put him up there for their ignorance. This is the most compelling example of the new "covenant" you've described, Moses. Not only does Yeheshua do away with the eye-for-an-eye rhetoric, he taught - and practiced - forgiveness, tolerance and love for all.

No exceptions. In fact, he even tells followers what to do if hurt by an enemy - don't fight back, turn the other cheek. Those who love their enemies receive God's peace. Those who don't, as Yehesua said, are not true disciples. He made this clear too: "not all who go in my name will enter the Kingdom of heaven".

Yehesua taught his followers to leave judgement to God. He did not make an exception for those who follow different belief systems. The New Testament is clear. "Judge not, as ye surely shall be judged".

Maybe it doesn't mean what it says, eh?

Good try at guile Karnal, but it won't cut it here.

if you want to quote examples set by Christ then I give you:

Matthew 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Now you want me to cast myself down before an evil hoard of satan worshipers (muslims) who believe that they have the right rape torture and murder non believers. (they become the highest grade of muslim if they embark on this course)

So do I have to love the evilness of islam?

No I don't Karnal, it's still Matthew 4:7 as the common sense reaction to the utter evilness of islam / allah / muhammad / qur'an.

No, Moses, you have to love your neighbor as you love thyself. If you preach the opposite, there is no way you can call yourself a Christian.

Jesus being tempted in the desert has nothing to do with the Muselman. You know this.

Have you ever thought of becoming baptized in the Holy Spirit?

I guess moses just has to make sure none of his neighbours are muslim right?

Well yes - neighbors or enemies. You're meant to love them too.

What I believe Karnal is trying to say, in his ineffective way: love the sinner, hate the sin. Perhaps he is deliberately leaving the second part out.

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freediver

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #101 - May 10^th, 2016 at 5:16pm

Quote:

Can you rephrase your question, FD?

No. Why?

Karnal wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 4:20pm:

moses wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 3:55pm:

The N.T. also tells Christians to abhor evil. Romans 12:9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good

You missed out the rest of the passage, Moses.

Quote:

9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10Be devoted to one another in love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13Share with the Lord’s people who are in need. Practice hospitality.

14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position.c Do not be conceited.

17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”d says the Lord. 20On the contrary:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;

if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.

In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”e

21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

It doesn't mean what it says, right?

In other words, give the Iraqis freedom and democracy, for it will really piss them off.

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moses

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #102 - May 10^th, 2016 at 5:28pm

karnal wrote:

Quote:

9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good

islam is evil, muslims who practice islamic evil such as beheading, mass murder, burning people alive, raping little girls etc. etc. to directly obey islamic doctrine are evil.

muslims who claim to be innocent but revere the satanic doctrine which sanctifies atrocities as divinely perfect never to be changed, are just as evil, they venerate the sataic doctrine, thus they support the atrocities spawned by this evilness.

The whole show is evil, Christians are told to loathe evil

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moses

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #103 - May 10^th, 2016 at 5:29pm

gandalf wrote;

Quote:

So tell me moses, who are your enemies, if not those who practice evil? Is there another category of humans worse than enemies?

I don't believe that an enemy has to necessarily be evil.

Your enemy is your foe or opposition.

Two differing positions don't automatically equate to one being evil.

There are many types of criminals, however the ones who commit the most inhumane of deeds against a helpless victim (Anita Corbys, Sian Kinghis murderers spring to mind, there are many more) they would in my mind belong in the evil class.

So I believe that evil people are the inhumanely worst of the worst.

Quote:

Mind you, I'd be interested to hear from moses what actual words he himself would use to describe his attitude towards muslims - would he openly say he 'hates' them, or advocate their annhialation? Well he's come close - he has expressed optimism that soon they will be bred out of existence. He may be studiously avoiding such language directly, and that might be his escape clause.

But somehow I can't see him agreeing that he must 'love' them.

My attitude is islam is evil, the deeds of islamists are evil, the veneration of the doctrine which causes islamic atrocities is evil. The qur'an is evil, allah is evil, muhammad is evil.

If you inbred yourselves out of existence I don't care.

muslims will be their own undoing, you don't have a hope in hell of sorting out islam, to do so will be the death knell, we all know that.

So the blood shed will continue until the world gets sick of you.

Then it will be a terrible time gandi.

The ball's in your court, you can keep going the way you are, or change.

But how are you going to change something that is immutably perfect and can never be changed?

You're between the rock and the hard place gandi.

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Karnal

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #104 - May 10^th, 2016 at 8:10pm

moses wrote on May 10^th, 2016 at 5:28pm:

karnal wrote:

Quote:

9Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good

islam is evil, muslims who practice islamic evil such as beheading, mass murder, burning people alive, raping little girls etc. etc. to directly obey islamic doctrine are evil.

muslims who claim to be innocent but revere the satanic doctrine which sanctifies atrocities as divinely perfect never to be changed, are just as evil, they venerate the sataic doctrine, thus they support the atrocities spawned by this evilness.

The whole show is evil, Christians are told to loathe evil

Oh, I know.

You think they’d be taught to love, no?

It doesn’t mean what it says, Moses. You’re an OT prophet, yes?

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