Australian Politics Forum - Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid

crocodile

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #15 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:38am

John Smith wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:04am:

crocodile wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 8:25am:

I don't recall it ever been proven on this board at all. Can you edify us all please.

if you have a cafe and require two staff on Sunday. Penalty rates are scrapped, do you
A. Hire another staff member or
B. Pocket extra profit

No one hires staff they don't need, and if they need them they already have them.

Nobody suggested otherwise

Any gains that may be made in some industries are offset by losses in others due to the decline in disposable.

No. The same dollars are in a different pocket where they are free to be spent wherever. There is no change to the velocity of money.

There are many existing threads on the topic where others have gone into much more detail.

There are many threads on the subject but precisely zero that prove the statement that there is no effect on employment numbers.

The reduction in input costs also allows scope for retail price reduction due to competition and increased sales volumes.

There is also the point that reinvestments of profits leads to growth in marginal productivity of labour.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Swagman

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #16 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:42am

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:28am:

cafe opens the same as it always has;
- the same two staff members work;
- the same amount of customers come;
- the same amount of coffee and cake is sold;
- the same amount of work is done as on previous Sundays;
- the customers pay the same as they have on previous Sundays;
- the two staff members get paid less than they have on previous Sundays;
- the cafe owner pockets more profit (which has been taken from his staff);
- the two staff members have less disposable income;
- the unemployment figures remain the same (or go up, due to there being less disposable incoming in the pockets of low paid workers across the country).

Assume double time. Your 2 staff members get paid double for Sunday. Two people get paid for the cost of 4 people. 2 potential jobs are foregone. 2 people that are otherwise unemployed 'could' be employed. The penalty rate could be keeping them out of a job.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #17 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:42am

John Smith wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:04am:

crocodile wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 8:25am:

I don't recall it ever been proven on this board at all. Can you edify us all please.

if you have a cafe and require two staff on Sunday. Penalty rates are scrapped, do you
A. Hire another staff member or
B. Pocket extra profit

No one hires staff they don't need, and if they need them they already have them. Any gains that may be made in some industries are offset by losses in others due to the decline in disposable . There are many existing threads on the topic where others have gone into much more detail.

100% correct.

Easy to understand.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #18 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:44am

Swagman wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:42am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:28am:

cafe opens the same as it always has;
- the same two staff members work;
- the same amount of customers come;
- the same amount of coffee and cake is sold;
- the same amount of work is done as on previous Sundays;
- the customers pay the same as they have on previous Sundays;
- the two staff members get paid less than they have on previous Sundays;
- the cafe owner pockets more profit (which has been taken from his staff);
- the two staff members have less disposable income;
- the unemployment figures remain the same (or go up, due to there being less disposable incoming in the pockets of low paid workers across the country).

Assume double time. Your 2 staff members get paid double for Sunday. Two people get paid for the cost of 4 people. 2 potential jobs are foregone.

The cafe owner is not going to hire more staff to do the same amount of work.

Why is so difficult for you to understand this simple fact? Seriously.

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Swagman

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #19 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:48am

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:44am:

The cafe owner is not going to hire more staff to do the same amount of work

....the 'owner' can reduce his price of product to pick up more business because he is suddenly more competitive.

If the business gets more trade, then it will need more staff Huh

More business, more revenue, more profit, more staff required.

Why is so difficult for you to understand this simple fact? Seriously.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 150593 Gender:	Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid Reply #20 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:49am Swagman wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:48am: greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:44am: The cafe owner is not going to hire more staff to do the same amount of work ....the 'owner' can reduce his price of product ...
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Its time

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #21 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:55am

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:49am:

Swagman wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:48am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:44am:

The cafe owner is not going to hire more staff to do the same amount of work

....the 'owner' can reduce his price of product ...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_0dfqFRfXq4/VG-h4RSRPCI/AAAAAAAAFSg/yvBk70M2TTw/s1600/...

No chit

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John Smith

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #22 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 10:02am

crocodile wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:38am:

The reduction in input costs also allows scope for retail price reduction due to competition and increased sales volumes.

allows scope? perhaps, but my money is on human greed dictating. A coffee shop owner who has been selling his coffee 7 days a week for $5 a cup isn't suddenly going to drop his price to $4 because he doesn't have to pay penalty rates.

there was an example someone once put up about something similar having happened in WA .. I'm not familiar with the case so I won't go into it, but it showed it had ZERO effect on employment. If someone who is familiar with the case I'm referring to can assist it would be greatly appreciated.

crocodile wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:38am:

The same dollars are in a different pocket where they are free to be spent wherever.

it'll end up in pockets of those who don't rely on it. The money will go into savings, or to buying luxury items. The coffee shop, restaurant, take away will in fact LOSE customers because there is less disposable income.

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Swagman

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #23 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 10:03am

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:49am:

Swagman wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:48am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:44am:

The cafe owner is not going to hire more staff to do the same amount of work

....the 'owner' can reduce his price of product ...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_0dfqFRfXq4/VG-h4RSRPCI/AAAAAAAAFSg/yvBk70M2TTw/s1600/...

Is that the best you've got Pecker?

You don't think that business ever reduces it's price to cater for demand fluctuations?

Has the word 'competition' been removed from your socialism dictionary? Cheesy

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #24 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 10:17am

Its time wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:55am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:49am:

Swagman wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:48am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:44am:

The cafe owner is not going to hire more staff to do the same amount of work

....the 'owner' can reduce his price of product ...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_0dfqFRfXq4/VG-h4RSRPCI/AAAAAAAAFSg/yvBk70M2TTw/s1600/...

No chit

Swagman should be a comedian.

If penalty rates are reduced, he "thinks" (once again, I'm being very generous) that business owners are going to reduce their prices, and then take on extra staff to handle the 100% increase in sales (Lol).

He believes employers will do that, rather than pocket the extra money and just let the business continue to operate successfully, as it always has done.

Someone please book Swagman for the next comedy festival.

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ian

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #25 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 10:35am

Swagman wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:21am:

ian wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:16am:

penalty rates arent an increase in costs. They are part of the existing cost structure

Why label pay rates "time and a half" or "double time" when referring to penalty rates then?

1 X 1.5 = 1.5

Has 1 increased or not? Huh

Of course it bloody well has.... Roll Eyes

Your issue appears to with the term "penalty rates" more than anything else., some EBAs have abolished penalty rates anyway and instead have factored in an increase to the hourly rate to allow for shift work involved. Regardless, penalty rates are nothing new, they have been around forever and are part of the existing cost structure Any employer who starts a business and doesnt factor in existing wage costs is a complete idiot. I dont see why workers should subsidise complete idiots, thats not going to help our economy. Stupid doesnt deserve to succeed.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #26 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 10:54am

ian wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 10:35am:

Swagman wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:21am:

ian wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:16am:

penalty rates arent an increase in costs. They are part of the existing cost structure

Why label pay rates "time and a half" or "double time" when referring to penalty rates then?

1 X 1.5 = 1.5

Has 1 increased or not? Huh

Of course it bloody well has.... Roll Eyes

Your issue appears to with the term "penalty rates" more than anything else., some EBAs have abolished penalty rates anyway and instead have factored in an increase to the hourly rate to allow for shift work involved. Regardless, penalty rates are nothing new, they have been around forever and are part of the existing cost structure Any employer who starts a business and doesnt factor in existing wage costs is a complete idiot. I dont see why workers should subsidise complete idiots, thats not going to help our economy. Stupid doesnt deserve to succeed.

Correct, from start to end.

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Swagman

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #27 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 10:55am

ian wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 10:35am:

Swagman wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:21am:

ian wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:16am:

penalty rates arent an increase in costs. They are part of the existing cost structure

Why label pay rates "time and a half" or "double time" when referring to penalty rates then?

1 X 1.5 = 1.5

Has 1 increased or not? Huh

Of course it bloody well has.... Roll Eyes

Your issue appears to with the term "penalty rates" more than anything else., some EBAs have abolished penalty rates anyway and instead have factored in an increase to the hourly rate to allow for shift work involved. Regardless, penalty rates are nothing new, they have been around forever and are part of the existing cost structure Any employer who starts a business and doesnt factor in existing wage costs is a complete idiot. I dont see why workers should subsidise complete idiots, thats not going to help our economy. Stupid doesnt deserve to succeed.

The market should determine whether it's stupid or not.

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John Smith

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #28 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 10:56am

Swagman wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 10:55am:

ian wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 10:35am:

Swagman wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:21am:

ian wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:16am:

penalty rates arent an increase in costs. They are part of the existing cost structure

Why label pay rates "time and a half" or "double time" when referring to penalty rates then?

1 X 1.5 = 1.5

Has 1 increased or not? Huh

Of course it bloody well has.... Roll Eyes

Your issue appears to with the term "penalty rates" more than anything else., some EBAs have abolished penalty rates anyway and instead have factored in an increase to the hourly rate to allow for shift work involved. Regardless, penalty rates are nothing new, they have been around forever and are part of the existing cost structure Any employer who starts a business and doesnt factor in existing wage costs is a complete idiot. I dont see why workers should subsidise complete idiots, thats not going to help our economy. Stupid doesnt deserve to succeed.

The market should determine whether it's stupid or not.

employment doesn't work on a free market basis, the last time it did that we had 10 yr old working 12 hr shifts in down mine shafts.

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ian

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Re: Penalty rates Crucial Safety Net For Low Paid
Reply #29 - Mar 21^st, 2016 at 11:09am

Swagman wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 10:55am:

ian wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 10:35am:

Swagman wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:21am:

ian wrote on Mar 21^st, 2016 at 9:16am:

penalty rates arent an increase in costs. They are part of the existing cost structure

Why label pay rates "time and a half" or "double time" when referring to penalty rates then?

1 X 1.5 = 1.5

Has 1 increased or not? Huh

Of course it bloody well has.... Roll Eyes

Your issue appears to with the term "penalty rates" more than anything else., some EBAs have abolished penalty rates anyway and instead have factored in an increase to the hourly rate to allow for shift work involved. Regardless, penalty rates are nothing new, they have been around forever and are part of the existing cost structure Any employer who starts a business and doesnt factor in existing wage costs is a complete idiot. I dont see why workers should subsidise complete idiots, thats not going to help our economy. Stupid doesnt deserve to succeed.

The market should determine whether it's stupid or not.

The market does. Open up a business without factoring in costs and the market will send you broke. Because you are stupid.

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