Australian Politics Forum - Amewica made ISIS!!!!

Mr Hammer

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Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!!
Reply #60 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:34pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 2:26pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 2:10pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 2:06pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 11:15am:

I'll ask you a question. Why does the blame always lie somewhere else when something bad comes out of Islam? Al Qaeda ( America ) Osama Bin Laden (America) Twin Towers (America) ISIS (America). It's a familiar pattern. America puts their nose in but they are constructions from Islamic people.

To be fair, I did volunteer that both Islam and America could be to blame.

Nonetheless, the argument is not completely without merit: with regards to bin Laden and AQ, they did make a habit of pointing out that their war was a defensive one against American imperialism. It might surprise you to learn that bin Laden wasn't actually interested in this 'global caliphate' we always hear about. He just wanted the US out of the muslim world and after that he had no beef with them - he made that clear in his many recordings he sent to Al Jazeera.

No one denies there isn't a virulent form of Islam that is domineering and violent. But in its practical implementation in the real world, it almost never exists outside the context of western interference and aggression.

There have been Islamic caliphates all through history.

Have there?

yes.

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Karnal

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Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!!
Reply #61 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:42pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:34pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 2:26pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 2:10pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 2:06pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 11:15am:

I'll ask you a question. Why does the blame always lie somewhere else when something bad comes out of Islam? Al Qaeda ( America ) Osama Bin Laden (America) Twin Towers (America) ISIS (America). It's a familiar pattern. America puts their nose in but they are constructions from Islamic people.

To be fair, I did volunteer that both Islam and America could be to blame.

Nonetheless, the argument is not completely without merit: with regards to bin Laden and AQ, they did make a habit of pointing out that their war was a defensive one against American imperialism. It might surprise you to learn that bin Laden wasn't actually interested in this 'global caliphate' we always hear about. He just wanted the US out of the muslim world and after that he had no beef with them - he made that clear in his many recordings he sent to Al Jazeera.

No one denies there isn't a virulent form of Islam that is domineering and violent. But in its practical implementation in the real world, it almost never exists outside the context of western interference and aggression.

There have been Islamic caliphates all through history.

Have there?

yes.

How many have there been? Please be specific, Homo. I'll give your answer a mark out of ten.

You can make up a few points by filling us in on the bombing of Cambodia - correctly this time. If you'd like to clarify which place Osama held in the leadership of the Taliban, that would be good too.

Actually, you might want to go back and clear up every other point you've made in this thread, after you've articulated your historiographical influences.

If you get a good mark, you can be history lecturer again.

Quote:

I know history isn't one of you stronger subjects but p[lease get your facts right sugar muffin.

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Mr Hammer

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Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!!
Reply #62 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:46pm

Brittanica .com

There were three caliphs between 680 and 685, and only by nearly 20 years of military campaigning did the next one, ʿAbd al-Malik, succeed in reestablishing the authority of the Umayyad capital of Damascus. ʿAbd al-Malik is also remembered for building the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. Under his son al-Walīd (705–715), Muslim forces took permanent possession of North Africa, converted the native Berbers to Islam, and overran most of the Iberian Peninsula as the Visigothic kingdom there collapsed. Progress was also made in the east with settlement in the Indus River valley. Umayyad power had never been firmly seated, however, and the Caliphate disintegrated rapidly after the long reign of Hishām (724–743). A serious rebellion broke out against the Umayyads in 747, and in 750 the last Umayyad caliph, Marwān II, was defeated in the Battle of Great Zab by the followers of the ʿAbbāsid family.

There's been loads of Islamic caliphates. Don't be so lazy and look it up.

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Karnal

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Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!!
Reply #63 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:48pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:46pm:

Brittanica .com

There were three caliphs between 680 and 685, and only by nearly 20 years of military campaigning did the next one, ʿAbd al-Malik, succeed in reestablishing the authority of the Umayyad capital of Damascus. ʿAbd al-Malik is also remembered for building the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. Under his son al-Walīd (705–715), Muslim forces took permanent possession of North Africa, converted the native Berbers to Islam, and overran most of the Iberian Peninsula as the Visigothic kingdom there collapsed. Progress was also made in the east with settlement in the Indus River valley. Umayyad power had never been firmly seated, however, and the Caliphate disintegrated rapidly after the long reign of Hishām (724–743). A serious rebellion broke out against the Umayyads in 747, and in 750 the last Umayyad caliph, Marwān II, was defeated in the Battle of Great Zab by the followers of the ʿAbbāsid family.

There's been loads of Islamic caliphates. Don't be so lazy and look it up.

Sorry, how many did you say?

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Mr Hammer Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25212 Gender:	Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!! Reply #64 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:49pm Bombing in Cambodia had nothing to do with the overthrow of The Cambodian monarchy by the KR. The Americans were attacking the Vietnamese Communists. Different people sugar plum.
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Mr Hammer

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Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!!
Reply #65 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:50pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:48pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:46pm:

Brittanica .com

There were three caliphs between 680 and 685, and only by nearly 20 years of military campaigning did the next one, ʿAbd al-Malik, succeed in reestablishing the authority of the Umayyad capital of Damascus. ʿAbd al-Malik is also remembered for building the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. Under his son al-Walīd (705–715), Muslim forces took permanent possession of North Africa, converted the native Berbers to Islam, and overran most of the Iberian Peninsula as the Visigothic kingdom there collapsed. Progress was also made in the east with settlement in the Indus River valley. Umayyad power had never been firmly seated, however, and the Caliphate disintegrated rapidly after the long reign of Hishām (724–743). A serious rebellion broke out against the Umayyads in 747, and in 750 the last Umayyad caliph, Marwān II, was defeated in the Battle of Great Zab by the followers of the ʿAbbāsid family.

There's been loads of Islamic caliphates. Don't be so lazy and look it up.

Sorry, how many did you say?

I don't know. Several. Look it up. You didn't believe they had existed and I answered it. You've been proved wrong again.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 98421	Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!! Reply #66 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:51pm Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:49pm: Bombing in Cambodia had nothing to do with the overthrow of The Cambodian monarchy by the KR. Sorry? I'm confused.
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Mr Hammer Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25212 Gender:	Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!! Reply #67 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:54pm Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:51pm: Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:49pm: Bombing in Cambodia had nothing to do with the overthrow of The Cambodian monarchy by the KR. Sorry? I'm confused. That's not my problem. So bombing in eastern Cambodia caused the overthrow of a Cambodian monarchy to communism? How?
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Karnal

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Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!!
Reply #68 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:55pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:50pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:48pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:46pm:

Brittanica .com

There were three caliphs between 680 and 685, and only by nearly 20 years of military campaigning did the next one, ʿAbd al-Malik, succeed in reestablishing the authority of the Umayyad capital of Damascus. ʿAbd al-Malik is also remembered for building the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. Under his son al-Walīd (705–715), Muslim forces took permanent possession of North Africa, converted the native Berbers to Islam, and overran most of the Iberian Peninsula as the Visigothic kingdom there collapsed. Progress was also made in the east with settlement in the Indus River valley. Umayyad power had never been firmly seated, however, and the Caliphate disintegrated rapidly after the long reign of Hishām (724–743). A serious rebellion broke out against the Umayyads in 747, and in 750 the last Umayyad caliph, Marwān II, was defeated in the Battle of Great Zab by the followers of the ʿAbbāsid family.

There's been loads of Islamic caliphates. Don't be so lazy and look it up.

Sorry, how many did you say?

I don't know. Several. Look it up. You didn't believe they had existed and I answered it. You've been proved wrong again.

Homo, I'm not sure I can give you any marks for "look it up", but I'm quite sure I never indicated Muslim caliphates did not exist.

Remember, there are no right or wrong answers here. Can I ask what position Osama had in the Taliban?

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Karnal

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Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!!
Reply #69 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:56pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:51pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:49pm:

Bombing in Cambodia had nothing to do with the overthrow of The Cambodian monarchy by the KR.

Sorry? I'm confused.

That's not my problem. So bombing in eastern Cambodia caused the overthrow of a Cambodian monarchy to communism? How?

That's a question, Homo. I'm trying to help you with answers.

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Mr Hammer

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Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!!
Reply #70 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:59pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:51pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:49pm:

Bombing in Cambodia had nothing to do with the overthrow of The Cambodian monarchy by the KR.

Sorry? I'm confused.

That's not my problem. So bombing in eastern Cambodia caused the overthrow of a Cambodian monarchy to communism? How?

That's a question, Homo. I'm trying to help you with answers.

You obviously know so tell me. I need to be educated??

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Mr Hammer

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Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!!
Reply #71 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 5:00pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:55pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:50pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:48pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:46pm:

Brittanica .com

There were three caliphs between 680 and 685, and only by nearly 20 years of military campaigning did the next one, ʿAbd al-Malik, succeed in reestablishing the authority of the Umayyad capital of Damascus. ʿAbd al-Malik is also remembered for building the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem. Under his son al-Walīd (705–715), Muslim forces took permanent possession of North Africa, converted the native Berbers to Islam, and overran most of the Iberian Peninsula as the Visigothic kingdom there collapsed. Progress was also made in the east with settlement in the Indus River valley. Umayyad power had never been firmly seated, however, and the Caliphate disintegrated rapidly after the long reign of Hishām (724–743). A serious rebellion broke out against the Umayyads in 747, and in 750 the last Umayyad caliph, Marwān II, was defeated in the Battle of Great Zab by the followers of the ʿAbbāsid family.

There's been loads of Islamic caliphates. Don't be so lazy and look it up.

Sorry, how many did you say?

I don't know. Several. Look it up. You didn't believe they had existed and I answered it. You've been proved wrong again.

Homo, I'm not sure I can give you any marks for "look it up", but I'm quite sure I never indicated Muslim caliphates did not exist.

Remember, there are no right or wrong answers here. Can I ask what position Osama had in the Taliban?

Why write Have there? Of course there have been. I filled you in. You learnt something.

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Karnal

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Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!!
Reply #72 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 5:04pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:59pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:51pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:49pm:

Bombing in Cambodia had nothing to do with the overthrow of The Cambodian monarchy by the KR.

Sorry? I'm confused.

That's not my problem. So bombing in eastern Cambodia caused the overthrow of a Cambodian monarchy to communism? How?

That's a question, Homo. I'm trying to help you with answers.

You obviously know so tell me. I need to be educated??

Are you asking me to provide you with the answer? What happened to "don't be so lazy and look it up"?

We all need to be educated, Homo - some more than others. Personally, I'm a student of the more-you-know-the-less-you-know school of thought. I liked this answer:

Quote:

The Taliban and AQ are connected dearest. AQ financed , trained, gave weapons to etc etc etc. It's the same with ISIS . It's a big organisation of off shoots. You'll get a simple answer that doesn't explore the complexity of it.

Unfortunately, it was a way to wriggle out of something else you said.

You could avoid this sort of thing in future, you know. It might sound a little daring, but you could try posting things that you've read about first.

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Mr Hammer

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Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!!
Reply #73 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 5:06pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 5:04pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:59pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:56pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:51pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 4:49pm:

Bombing in Cambodia had nothing to do with the overthrow of The Cambodian monarchy by the KR.

Sorry? I'm confused.

That's not my problem. So bombing in eastern Cambodia caused the overthrow of a Cambodian monarchy to communism? How?

That's a question, Homo. I'm trying to help you with answers.

You obviously know so tell me. I need to be educated??

Are you asking me to provide you with the answer? What happened to "don't be so lazy and look it up"?

We all need to be educated, Homo - some more than others. Personally, I'm a student of the more-you-know-the-less-you-know school of thought.

Don't avoid a chance to educate. Show me your knowledge on the subject. Otherwise it looks like you are avoiding the chance to educate because you actually know nothing on the subject.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Amewica made ISIS!!!!
Reply #74 - Mar 16^th, 2016 at 5:09pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 3:57pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 16^th, 2016 at 3:53pm:

bin Laden wasn't leader of the taliban.

Officially Al Qaeda were guests of the taliban, who desperately needed their funding. But in reality there was resentment between them - AQ wanted a global fight, while the taliban were only interested in securing Afghanistan. The taliban were also not blind to the threat posed by AQ to their hold on power - and were horrified when 9/11 happened.

You're also not quite right about the rise of bin Laden and AQ. His global campaign of terror was instigated directly by the US occupation of Saudi Arabia to protect the oil fields from Saddam. Listen to his messages - the presense of US bases in Saudi Arabia is one of, if not the key element of his global jihad - not the local Afghan conflict.

Osama was leader of AQ right who wanted a global fight like you just said. But before you said Osama didn't want a global fight. Make up your mind. Didn't Osama Bina A Hiden lead the Taliban in Afghanistan when the Americans landed??? These organisations are very connected.

1. I never said OBL didn't want a global fight, I said he didn't want a global caliphate. He attacked America all over the globe- but only justified it in terms of fighting aggression and imperialism. The twin towers represented US-led global trade and the pentagon obviously represents US military power

2. No, OBL did not lead the taliban - it was lead by Mullah Omar at the time of invasion. The taliban was a local Pashtun group who were only interested in ruling Afghanistan. Al Qaeda is global group of jihadis from across the muslim world - but mostly arab. Despite nominal cooperation during the taliban years, the two groups remained very separate.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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