Australian Politics Forum - Government to change Senate voting laws

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #105 - Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 7:17pm

Bam wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 2:48pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 8:02am:

You're wrong. Open this link and scroll down to ticket Z where Muir is and go across to the far right. You'll note that this is the AEC website for first preference votes in the senate race of 2013, and it shows the total number of first preference votes to Muir was 16. Ergo, I was right, you were wrong.

http://results.aec.gov.au/17496/Website/SenateDivisionFirstPrefsByVoteType-17496...

Epic fail from Armpit!!

He's posted the below-the-line results for ONE SEAT and tried to pretend that it was the results for all votes cast in all 37 seats in Victoria.

Muir actually got 17,083 first-preference votes, including above-the-line votes.

He sure isn't have a good day , it's the fear

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John Smith

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #106 - Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 7:34pm

mariacostel wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 5:28pm:

John Smith wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 7:40am:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 7:35am:

Aussie wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 5:52pm:

Cods, I don't care which Party has Government whether that be the Coalition, Labor, Greens or even PUP. I do not want that Party to have control of the Senate. I like what we have......some people from left field.....ordinary Australians.......in a position that the Government has to convince them (unless the other major Party supports a Government proposal in the Senate) that what they propose is good for the Country.

Why dont we just have people elected fairly and democratically and let the results speak for themselves.

what is unfair and undemocratic about the minors doing deals? the libs do it all the time and you don't whinge.

Over 50% of the population voted against the GST when it was introduced, yet you didn't call it undemocratic when Howard bought it in anyway, did you?. The public voted to bring in an ETS and you supported the libs when they refused to back it didn't you? What happened to democracy then?

It's funny how you use the undemocratic excuse when it suits but forget all about it when push comes to shove

99.5% of the population voted against Ricky Muir yet he is a senator.

actually, they didn't ... through their preferences. If they had wanted to preference someone else they would have. That they were happy to go along with whatever their first preference wanted that doesn't make it any less democratic.

When will you learn how our system works?

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78311 Gender:	Re: Government to change Senate voting laws Reply #107 - Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 7:34pm flip
Back to top	Our esteemed leader: I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus. IP Logged

Bias_2012

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #108 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 12:42am

As David Leyonhjelm said, "The minor parties were only doing what the major parties were doing themselves since 1984"

So how long will it be before the major parties rig the system even more so as to prevent any minor party from getting any seats at all ... probably not long, and after that they're find a reason to justify banning minor parties altogether. The justification will likely be something ridiculous like they never get enough votes to deliver, to win government, so why do they even try, they can lobby us and we'll do it for them

You past your use-by date Libs and Labs are going to get yours, and I reckon I'll still be around to see it

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Our Lives Are Governed By The Feast & Famine Variable

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stunspore

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #109 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 6:33am

mariacostel wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 5:28pm:

John Smith wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 7:40am:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 7:35am:

Aussie wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 5:52pm:

Cods, I don't care which Party has Government whether that be the Coalition, Labor, Greens or even PUP. I do not want that Party to have control of the Senate. I like what we have......some people from left field.....ordinary Australians.......in a position that the Government has to convince them (unless the other major Party supports a Government proposal in the Senate) that what they propose is good for the Country.

Why dont we just have people elected fairly and democratically and let the results speak for themselves.

what is unfair and undemocratic about the minors doing deals? the libs do it all the time and you don't whinge.

Over 50% of the population voted against the GST when it was introduced, yet you didn't call it undemocratic when Howard bought it in anyway, did you?. The public voted to bring in an ETS and you supported the libs when they refused to back it didn't you? What happened to democracy then?

It's funny how you use the undemocratic excuse when it suits but forget all about it when push comes to shove

99.5% of the population voted against Ricky Muir yet he is a senator.

Prob jealous that another lib didn't get the seat.
When people voted just '1' above line, either they accept the convenience of it, or they trust the party (minor or otherwise) to make good 2nd, 3rd, etc choices if that team didn't get in. Simple.

As pointed out earlier by someone, not voting for someone 1st choice doesn't necessarily mean voting against them.

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mariacostel

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #110 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:02am

Aussie wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 5:57pm:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 5:47pm:

Aussie wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 5:43pm:

Maria/LongLie, he has been in politics since the day of Joe the Jerk in Queensland. He has been LNP dna for more than probably touching on 2.5 decades, and was one of its major donors. Yeas, he's an amateur.

Since when has 'being a donor' made you 'in politics'. The clown got 26% at the last election in his seat and is now on just 2%. That is the kind of swing that proves the point that he has no idea what he is doing. The early days of PUP in the senate was one embarrassment after another until it all predictably unravelled. He has no clue what he is doing in politics. He is incompetent at the art of politics.

What kind of political 'expert' attacks the Clerk of the Senate for refusing to accept his bill despite it being unconstitutional?

He is a fool, as is anyone who still supports him.

Odd you would be critical about a bloke you know nothing of. He was a Life Member of the LNP and was also a delegate of the Qld LNP to National Conferences. It seems you know absolutely nothing relevant.

Still doesn't change the fact that he is a fool, fuelled by revenge, funded by workers entitlements and powered by a small IQ.

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mariacostel

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #111 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:05am

stunspore wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 6:33am:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 5:28pm:

John Smith wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 7:40am:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 7:35am:

Aussie wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 5:52pm:

Cods, I don't care which Party has Government whether that be the Coalition, Labor, Greens or even PUP. I do not want that Party to have control of the Senate. I like what we have......some people from left field.....ordinary Australians.......in a position that the Government has to convince them (unless the other major Party supports a Government proposal in the Senate) that what they propose is good for the Country.

Why dont we just have people elected fairly and democratically and let the results speak for themselves.

what is unfair and undemocratic about the minors doing deals? the libs do it all the time and you don't whinge.

Over 50% of the population voted against the GST when it was introduced, yet you didn't call it undemocratic when Howard bought it in anyway, did you?. The public voted to bring in an ETS and you supported the libs when they refused to back it didn't you? What happened to democracy then?

It's funny how you use the undemocratic excuse when it suits but forget all about it when push comes to shove

99.5% of the population voted against Ricky Muir yet he is a senator.

Prob jealous that another lib didn't get the seat.
When people voted just '1' above line, either they accept the convenience of it, or they trust the party (minor or otherwise) to make good 2nd, 3rd, etc choices if that team didn't get in. Simple.

As pointed out earlier by someone, not voting for someone 1st choice doesn't necessarily mean voting against them.

A tad naive to say the least. In a system that requires EVERY candidate receive a preference, you analysis means no one votes against anyone, despite the fact that most voters very specifically choose a party to support and the rest to reject.

If you can support Muir's election as democratic then you have some serious issues to work out.

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Bam

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #112 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:29am

Bias_2012 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 12:42am:

As David Leyonhjelm said, "The minor parties were only doing what the major parties were doing themselves since 1984"

So how long will it be before the major parties rig the system even more so as to prevent any minor party from getting any seats at all ... probably not long, and after that they're find a reason to justify banning minor parties altogether. The justification will likely be something ridiculous like they never get enough votes to deliver, to win government, so why do they even try, they can lobby us and we'll do it for them

You past your use-by date Libs and Labs are going to get yours, and I reckon I'll still be around to see it

I expect in the future they will probably try to enforce a minimum percentage of votes or other such nonsense.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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mariacostel

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #113 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:55am

Bam wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:29am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 12:42am:

As David Leyonhjelm said, "The minor parties were only doing what the major parties were doing themselves since 1984"

So how long will it be before the major parties rig the system even more so as to prevent any minor party from getting any seats at all ... probably not long, and after that they're find a reason to justify banning minor parties altogether. The justification will likely be something ridiculous like they never get enough votes to deliver, to win government, so why do they even try, they can lobby us and we'll do it for them

You past your use-by date Libs and Labs are going to get yours, and I reckon I'll still be around to see it

I expect in the future they will probably try to enforce a minimum percentage of votes or other such nonsense.

Yet oddly, you support these changes in general. And why? Because it merely seeks to eradicate the undemocratic way in which some senators are elected. The LDP senator got in my being confused for the Liberals. Ricky Muir was elected by Preference-whispering. Neither has any business being in the Senate elected by such undemocratic means. I am a supporter of the democratic process way before a supporter of the Liberals. Let parliament reflect the will of the people and I am happy. Let someone be elected as one party, change sides and put in another party and I am not. Nor am I happy about people elected by less votes than most people have facebook friends.

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mariacostel

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #114 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:57am

Bam wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:29am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 12:42am:

As David Leyonhjelm said, "The minor parties were only doing what the major parties were doing themselves since 1984"

So how long will it be before the major parties rig the system even more so as to prevent any minor party from getting any seats at all ... probably not long, and after that they're find a reason to justify banning minor parties altogether. The justification will likely be something ridiculous like they never get enough votes to deliver, to win government, so why do they even try, they can lobby us and we'll do it for them

You past your use-by date Libs and Labs are going to get yours, and I reckon I'll still be around to see it

I expect in the future they will probably try to enforce a minimum percentage of votes or other such nonsense.

I am not averse to perhaps extinguishing the votes of parties or single candidates that receive less than 1% of the vote. It would have to be done fairly of course and have a viable purpose.

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Bam

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #115 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 10:06am

mariacostel wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:55am:

Bam wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:29am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 12:42am:

As David Leyonhjelm said, "The minor parties were only doing what the major parties were doing themselves since 1984"

So how long will it be before the major parties rig the system even more so as to prevent any minor party from getting any seats at all ... probably not long, and after that they're find a reason to justify banning minor parties altogether. The justification will likely be something ridiculous like they never get enough votes to deliver, to win government, so why do they even try, they can lobby us and we'll do it for them

You past your use-by date Libs and Labs are going to get yours, and I reckon I'll still be around to see it

I expect in the future they will probably try to enforce a minimum percentage of votes or other such nonsense.

Yet oddly, you support these changes in general. And why? Because it merely seeks to eradicate the undemocratic way in which some senators are elected. The LDP senator got in my being confused for the Liberals. Ricky Muir was elected by Preference-whispering. Neither has any business being in the Senate elected by such undemocratic means. I am a supporter of the democratic process way before a supporter of the Liberals. Let parliament reflect the will of the people and I am happy. Let someone be elected as one party, change sides and put in another party and I am not. Nor am I happy about people elected by less votes than most people have facebook friends.

Here's why I do not support minimum quotas. What happens when you've got a 4% minimum to be elected, one seat to be filled and none of the remaining candidates have 4% of the vote?

And I don't care that it is unlikely. It's NOT impossible. The Senate elects too few people in each state to make it workable.

I don't have a problem with a few crossbench Senators being elected on relatively low votes. Sometimes, they turn out to be very good candidates - that's how Xenophon got started with his political career in SA.

What I have a problem with is the ticket voting system that games the system to make it more likely.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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Bam

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #116 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 10:06am

The proposed reforms are flawed by discouraging voters to vote for candidates in any order other than that approved by the parties. Why is it acceptable for a vote to be valid by numbering only one box above the line, but voters who vote below the line must number at least 90% of the boxes? The parties' machines win again. Sad

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #117 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 10:10am

mariacostel wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:57am:

Bam wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:29am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 12:42am:

As David Leyonhjelm said, "The minor parties were only doing what the major parties were doing themselves since 1984"

So how long will it be before the major parties rig the system even more so as to prevent any minor party from getting any seats at all ... probably not long, and after that they're find a reason to justify banning minor parties altogether. The justification will likely be something ridiculous like they never get enough votes to deliver, to win government, so why do they even try, they can lobby us and we'll do it for them

You past your use-by date Libs and Labs are going to get yours, and I reckon I'll still be around to see it

I expect in the future they will probably try to enforce a minimum percentage of votes or other such nonsense.

I am not averse to perhaps extinguishing the votes of parties or single candidates that receive less than 1% of the vote. It would have to be done fairly of course and have a viable purpose.

Another backyard Fascist..... let the people decide who they want to vote for..... you don't get to 'extinguish' anything...... not on my watch.

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Bam

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #118 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 10:25am

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 10:10am:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:57am:

Bam wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:29am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 12:42am:

As David Leyonhjelm said, "The minor parties were only doing what the major parties were doing themselves since 1984"

So how long will it be before the major parties rig the system even more so as to prevent any minor party from getting any seats at all ... probably not long, and after that they're find a reason to justify banning minor parties altogether. The justification will likely be something ridiculous like they never get enough votes to deliver, to win government, so why do they even try, they can lobby us and we'll do it for them

You past your use-by date Libs and Labs are going to get yours, and I reckon I'll still be around to see it

I expect in the future they will probably try to enforce a minimum percentage of votes or other such nonsense.

I am not averse to perhaps extinguishing the votes of parties or single candidates that receive less than 1% of the vote. It would have to be done fairly of course and have a viable purpose.

Another backyard Fascist..... let the people decide who they want to vote for..... you don't get to 'extinguish' anything...... not on my watch.

Well put.

More than 23% of the votes cast in the Senate at the last election went to "other" candidates - not ALP, Coalition or Green. Why should these 23% of voters not be represented in Parliament?

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Kat

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Re: Government to change Senate voting laws
Reply #119 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 10:35am

mariacostel wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:05am:

stunspore wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 6:33am:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 5:28pm:

John Smith wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 7:40am:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 23^rd, 2016 at 7:35am:

Aussie wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 5:52pm:

Cods, I don't care which Party has Government whether that be the Coalition, Labor, Greens or even PUP. I do not want that Party to have control of the Senate. I like what we have......some people from left field.....ordinary Australians.......in a position that the Government has to convince them (unless the other major Party supports a Government proposal in the Senate) that what they propose is good for the Country.

Why dont we just have people elected fairly and democratically and let the results speak for themselves.

what is unfair and undemocratic about the minors doing deals? the libs do it all the time and you don't whinge.

Over 50% of the population voted against the GST when it was introduced, yet you didn't call it undemocratic when Howard bought it in anyway, did you?. The public voted to bring in an ETS and you supported the libs when they refused to back it didn't you? What happened to democracy then?

It's funny how you use the undemocratic excuse when it suits but forget all about it when push comes to shove

99.5% of the population voted against Ricky Muir yet he is a senator.

Prob jealous that another lib didn't get the seat.
When people voted just '1' above line, either they accept the convenience of it, or they trust the party (minor or otherwise) to make good 2nd, 3rd, etc choices if that team didn't get in. Simple.

As pointed out earlier by someone, not voting for someone 1st choice doesn't necessarily mean voting against them.

A tad naive to say the least. In a system that requires EVERY candidate receive a preference, you analysis means no one votes against anyone, despite the fact that most voters very specifically choose a party to support and the rest to reject.

If you can support Muir's election as democratic then you have some serious issues to work out.

I do.

It was.

And I haven't.

But you mob pushing to let this pack of scum have control of the Senate most definitely have

And they go far beyond merely which side of politics you support.

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