Australian Politics Forum - '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...'

lee

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Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...'
Reply #15 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:36pm

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

Greenhouse gases have the same properties. Only the concentration varies in some cases.

CO2 warms the troposphere (tropospheric hotspot) and cools the stratosphere

'Increased levels of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere have resulted in the warming of the troposphere and cooling of the stratosphere which is caused by two mechanisms. '

http://skepticalscience.com/Stratospheric_Cooling.html

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lee

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Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...'
Reply #16 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:38pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:33pm:

have you worked out why there is a time lag in the ice core data with respect to Temperature and CO2 concentration?

Have you accepted the reality that in the past, humans were not building and operating coal fired power stations and extracting oil and gas for combustion?

Have you worked out why 3% of 4% has such a huge influence?

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John_Taverner

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Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...'
Reply #17 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:44pm

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:36pm:

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

Greenhouse gases have the same properties. Only the concentration varies in some cases.

CO2 warms the troposphere (tropospheric hotspot) and cools the stratosphere

'Increased levels of carbon dioxide (CO2) in the atmosphere have resulted in the warming of the troposphere and cooling of the stratosphere which is caused by two mechanisms. '

http://skepticalscience.com/Stratospheric_Cooling.html

Well, that is true, but it's incidental. I will try to explain that effect to you once we get past the basics.

I have more questions after you answer the first two.

What is wrong with the diagram? Look at the arrows.

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« Last Edit: Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:49pm by John_Taverner »

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21599 Gender:	Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...' Reply #18 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:49pm John_Taverner wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:44pm: What is wrong with the diagram? Look at the arrows. You mean it only shows downwelling radiation? That it should radiate in all directions? Don't you just love the surface imbalance of Stephens et al 2012?
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John_Taverner

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Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...'
Reply #19 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:04pm

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:49pm:

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:44pm:

What is wrong with the diagram? Look at the arrows.

You mean it only shows downwelling radiation?

Not quite.

You said something about the saturation effect of water vapour in the lower atmosphere. That's correct, but it's a function of concentration. Do you understand why the bandwidth increases with concentration?

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21599 Gender:	Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...' Reply #20 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:34pm Nope
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Bobby.

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Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...'
Reply #21 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:47pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:33pm:

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 6:26pm:

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 4:08pm:

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 2:27pm:

Temperature precedes CO2

That's not the whole truth though. increasing CO2 levels become both the cause and effect of further warming.

At what level does the magic gas take control?

have you worked out why there is a time lag in the ice core data with respect to Temperature and CO2 concentration?

Have you accepted the reality that in the past, humans were not building and operating coal fired power stations and extracting oil and gas for combustion?

Don't worry Chimp - just for now -

the new Ice Age will keep us cool till 2030 -

then it's going to get very hot.

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...'
Reply #22 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:52pm

Bobby. wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:47pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:33pm:

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 6:26pm:

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 4:08pm:

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 2:27pm:

Temperature precedes CO2

That's not the whole truth though. increasing CO2 levels become both the cause and effect of further warming.

At what level does the magic gas take control?

have you worked out why there is a time lag in the ice core data with respect to Temperature and CO2 concentration?

Have you accepted the reality that in the past, humans were not building and operating coal fired power stations and extracting oil and gas for combustion?

Don't worry Chimp - just for now -

the new Ice Age will keep us cool till 2030 -

then it's going to get very hot.

explain the physical mechanisms and dynamics of this snap change in temperature

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Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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Bobby.

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Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...'
Reply #23 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:58pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:52pm:

Bobby. wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:47pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:33pm:

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 6:26pm:

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 4:08pm:

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 2:27pm:

Temperature precedes CO2

That's not the whole truth though. increasing CO2 levels become both the cause and effect of further warming.

At what level does the magic gas take control?

have you worked out why there is a time lag in the ice core data with respect to Temperature and CO2 concentration?

Have you accepted the reality that in the past, humans were not building and operating coal fired power stations and extracting oil and gas for combustion?

Don't worry Chimp - just for now -

the new Ice Age will keep us cool till 2030 -

then it's going to get very hot.

explain the physical mechanisms and dynamics of this snap change in temperature

It's to do with the decrease in Solar activity & the amount of
volcanic eruptions just like the Maunder minimum.

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John_Taverner

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Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...'
Reply #24 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 10:18pm

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:34pm:

Nope

Well I'll explain that bit too.

Ok, but you do understand that the radiative forcing concerns longwave radiation from the Earth? The arrow should be coming upwards.

Imagine a photon of Longwave IR radiation (heat transmitting) coming up from the Earth's surface. It's like the stem of the dandelion. The centre of the dandelion "clock" is like the position of a CO2 molecule. If the energy (frequency) of that photon is just right, the CO2 molecule will absorb it and start stretching (a bit like the diagram in that link). (There is also bending)

In practice, CO2 molecules and water, methane etc molecules are absorbing and retransmitting the radiation all the time.

Now in the lower atmosphere, these events are much more common, because the atmosphere is thicker. As we get further and further up the atmospheric column, it becomes more and more likely that the emitted radiation will escape to space. Also the curvature of the Earth starts to have an effect.

So when the CO2 molecules releases a packet of IR, it can do that in any direction, much like the directions of the seeds on the dandelion head.

Follow so far?

The CO2 molecule absorbs the IR coming from the ground, then re-emits IR in a random direction. The probability of the IR returning back to the lower atmosphere is about 50%.

Do you understand that the atmosphere gets cooler and thinner with height, so that its capacity to hold water vapour decreases substantially as the water dewpoint decreases?

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« Last Edit: Feb 9^th, 2016 at 9:43am by John_Taverner »

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Chimp_Logic

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Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...'
Reply #25 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 10:20pm

Bobby. wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:58pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:52pm:

Bobby. wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:47pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:33pm:

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 6:26pm:

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 4:08pm:

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 2:27pm:

Temperature precedes CO2

That's not the whole truth though. increasing CO2 levels become both the cause and effect of further warming.

At what level does the magic gas take control?

have you worked out why there is a time lag in the ice core data with respect to Temperature and CO2 concentration?

Have you accepted the reality that in the past, humans were not building and operating coal fired power stations and extracting oil and gas for combustion?

Don't worry Chimp - just for now -

the new Ice Age will keep us cool till 2030 -

then it's going to get very hot.

explain the physical mechanisms and dynamics of this snap change in temperature

It's to do with the decrease in Solar activity & the amount of
volcanic eruptions just like the Maunder minimum.

where is the data that supports this?

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Mini Ice Age (2014-2029)
Dr Sircus cures cancer with Baking Soda and Magnesium - Jethro the MENTAL GIANT & his flute madness

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Bobby.

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Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...'
Reply #26 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 10:22pm

Chimp_Logic wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 10:20pm:

Bobby. wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:58pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:52pm:

Bobby. wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 9:47pm:

Chimp_Logic wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 8:33pm:

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 6:26pm:

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 4:08pm:

lee wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 2:27pm:

Temperature precedes CO2

That's not the whole truth though. increasing CO2 levels become both the cause and effect of further warming.

At what level does the magic gas take control?

have you worked out why there is a time lag in the ice core data with respect to Temperature and CO2 concentration?

Have you accepted the reality that in the past, humans were not building and operating coal fired power stations and extracting oil and gas for combustion?

Don't worry Chimp - just for now -

the new Ice Age will keep us cool till 2030 -

then it's going to get very hot.

explain the physical mechanisms and dynamics of this snap change in temperature

It's to do with the decrease in Solar activity & the amount of
volcanic eruptions just like the Maunder minimum.

where is the data that supports this?

Have you seen my new ice age thread?

it's here:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1421385253/0#0

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John_Taverner Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2217 Gender:	Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...' Reply #27 - Feb 8^th, 2016 at 10:41pm I'm going to move any off topic posts to your Ice Age trolling thread. Please keep Ice Age trolling confined to that thread.
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lee

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Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...'
Reply #28 - Feb 9^th, 2016 at 10:41am

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 10:18pm:

So when the CO2 molecules releases a packet of IR, it can do that in any direction, much like the directions of the seeds on the dandelion head.

That's my understanding of downward and upward IR.

John_Taverner wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 10:18pm:

Do you understand that the atmosphere gets cooler and thinner with height, so that its capacity to hold water vapour decreases substantially as the water dewpoint decreases?

Yes. Although the dwpoint is not a constant.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21599 Gender:	Re: '...CO2 Rocketed to 405.6 ppm Yesterday...' Reply #29 - Feb 9^th, 2016 at 10:50am Chimp_Logic wrote on Feb 8^th, 2016 at 4:06pm: Do you want me to provide a link for you to read the credible scientific explanation of this "time lag"? You still haven't shown me this credible explanation.
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