Australian Politics Forum - The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase

Its time

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #90 - Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 11:04pm

crocodile wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 10:51pm:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 7:44pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 7:06pm:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 3:16pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 11:02am:

The deficit was doubled the debt wasn't. Actually you are both wrong.

The Net debt in 2013 was $153B (from final budget outcomes)

The expected net Debt this year is $278 B. (from MYEFO)

So bobby, to double the debt would require annual deficits of $140B each year.

Obviously to doubt a net debt of $150 Billion it would require 1 deficit of $150B or 3 of $50B.

Still to increase net debt to $278 B is a really good effort.

The Liberals took a $17B deficit and have averages $43B deficit per year over 3 years.

So they have averaged more than double the deficit they inherited every year in power.

You just get so much wrong, it is quite extraordinary. The libs have had TWO budgets, not three. THe $17B deficit was actually $18B and was by far the smallest deficit of the 6 labor years and artificially created by putting payments forward into the first Liberal budget year.

And what you need to also remember is that the net debt increase under Labor was $200B as there was $48B in cash in the bank under Howard and that is now all gone.

deficit was actually $18B and was by far the smallest deficit of the 6 labor years

If you go back 6 you will find that the first was a surplus budget.

was $48B in cash in the bank under Howard and that is now all gone.

No there wasn't.

The libs have had TWO budgets, not three.

As stated the third figure is as stated in this years MYEFO and it is a conservative number it will likely be a higher debt in the final outcome.

as there was $48B $30B in cash in the bank under Howard and that is now all gone.

Funny what a Global financial crisis will do to a small saving.

Especially when they also has a massive mining boom at the same time. What about now?

Another dick measuring exercise. My surplus is bigger than yours. Your deficit is bigger than mine yadda yadda yadda.

For the record, the 2007-08 net financial balance was $19.754 billion. It's all on the public record in the budget historical data.

http://www.budget.gov.au/2015-16/content/overview/html/overview-35.htm

It's not even hard to see why it vanished. If one cares to look at the data you will find that over the last decade and a half spending hasn't changed an awful lot being within a percentage point of 25% of GDP. Revenue on the other hand collapsed from a high of 25.9% down to a low in 2010-11 of 21.5%. There's your deficit right there.

All the whinging about debt levels that are minor compared to the size of the economy and entirely manageable distracts from the more important issues like really shithouse total factor productivity performance. This does far more harm to real wages growth than any deficit ever will but nary a mention is heard.

That's all the unions fault.

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crocodile

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #91 - Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 11:19pm

Its time wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 11:04pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 10:51pm:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 7:44pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 7:06pm:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 3:16pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 11:02am:

The deficit was doubled the debt wasn't. Actually you are both wrong.

The Net debt in 2013 was $153B (from final budget outcomes)

The expected net Debt this year is $278 B. (from MYEFO)

So bobby, to double the debt would require annual deficits of $140B each year.

Obviously to doubt a net debt of $150 Billion it would require 1 deficit of $150B or 3 of $50B.

Still to increase net debt to $278 B is a really good effort.

The Liberals took a $17B deficit and have averages $43B deficit per year over 3 years.

So they have averaged more than double the deficit they inherited every year in power.

You just get so much wrong, it is quite extraordinary. The libs have had TWO budgets, not three. THe $17B deficit was actually $18B and was by far the smallest deficit of the 6 labor years and artificially created by putting payments forward into the first Liberal budget year.

And what you need to also remember is that the net debt increase under Labor was $200B as there was $48B in cash in the bank under Howard and that is now all gone.

deficit was actually $18B and was by far the smallest deficit of the 6 labor years

If you go back 6 you will find that the first was a surplus budget.

was $48B in cash in the bank under Howard and that is now all gone.

No there wasn't.

The libs have had TWO budgets, not three.

As stated the third figure is as stated in this years MYEFO and it is a conservative number it will likely be a higher debt in the final outcome.

as there was $48B $30B in cash in the bank under Howard and that is now all gone.

Funny what a Global financial crisis will do to a small saving.

Especially when they also has a massive mining boom at the same time. What about now?

Another dick measuring exercise. My surplus is bigger than yours. Your deficit is bigger than mine yadda yadda yadda.

For the record, the 2007-08 net financial balance was $19.754 billion. It's all on the public record in the budget historical data.

http://www.budget.gov.au/2015-16/content/overview/html/overview-35.htm

It's not even hard to see why it vanished. If one cares to look at the data you will find that over the last decade and a half spending hasn't changed an awful lot being within a percentage point of 25% of GDP. Revenue on the other hand collapsed from a high of 25.9% down to a low in 2010-11 of 21.5%. There's your deficit right there.

All the whinging about debt levels that are minor compared to the size of the economy and entirely manageable distracts from the more important issues like really shithouse total factor productivity performance. This does far more harm to real wages growth than any deficit ever will but nary a mention is heard.

That's all the unions fault.

What's the union's fault ?

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Bobby.

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #92 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 5:52am

mariacostel wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 10:47am:

Bobby. wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:16pm:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:14pm:

we are in Debt..

Labor put us in this Massive Debt..

Labor are keeping us in Debt by blocking savings..

this will continue till the next election when hopefully we get a clear winner in government and in the senate..

Labor threw Billions of Dollars into the Budget knowing we couldn't afford it and expecting to lose the last election so as to make the next government look bad..

there was so much waste in the last Labor government it was just sickening and still is..

the filthy immigrants are costing us 100 Million dollars a year and will continue to rise.. another Labor Rippa..

so anyways..

to pay back your debts you either raise taxes or cut all of Labors irresponsible spending...

but it seems that the Leftard don't want any cuts.. or.. any tax increases..

and that's why most people know that the leftist is mentally handicapped.. durr Cheesy

Labor put us in this Massive Debt?

We've had more than a doubling of the debt since the Libbos came to power.

Get your facts straight & apologise to all the readers.

So bobby, to double the debt would require annual deficits of $140B each year.

Do you want to try again oh gullible one?

The national Govt. debt is $439 billion

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/

from memory it was less than half that under Labor.

Apologise to the readers.

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Its time

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #93 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 5:58am

Bobby. wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 5:52am:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 10:47am:

Bobby. wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:16pm:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:14pm:

we are in Debt..

Labor put us in this Massive Debt..

Labor are keeping us in Debt by blocking savings..

this will continue till the next election when hopefully we get a clear winner in government and in the senate..

Labor threw Billions of Dollars into the Budget knowing we couldn't afford it and expecting to lose the last election so as to make the next government look bad..

there was so much waste in the last Labor government it was just sickening and still is..

the filthy immigrants are costing us 100 Million dollars a year and will continue to rise.. another Labor Rippa..

so anyways..

to pay back your debts you either raise taxes or cut all of Labors irresponsible spending...

but it seems that the Leftard don't want any cuts.. or.. any tax increases..

and that's why most people know that the leftist is mentally handicapped.. durr Cheesy

Labor put us in this Massive Debt?

We've had more than a doubling of the debt since the Libbos came to power.

Get your facts straight & apologise to all the readers.

So bobby, to double the debt would require annual deficits of $140B each year.

Do you want to try again oh gullible one?

The national Govt. debt is $439 billion

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/

from memory it was less than half that under Labor.

Apologise to the readers.

Impossible, the adults are in charge

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Its time

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #94 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 5:59am

crocodile wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 11:19pm:

Its time wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 11:04pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 10:51pm:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 7:44pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 7:06pm:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 3:16pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 11:02am:

The deficit was doubled the debt wasn't. Actually you are both wrong.

The Net debt in 2013 was $153B (from final budget outcomes)

The expected net Debt this year is $278 B. (from MYEFO)

So bobby, to double the debt would require annual deficits of $140B each year.

Obviously to doubt a net debt of $150 Billion it would require 1 deficit of $150B or 3 of $50B.

Still to increase net debt to $278 B is a really good effort.

The Liberals took a $17B deficit and have averages $43B deficit per year over 3 years.

So they have averaged more than double the deficit they inherited every year in power.

You just get so much wrong, it is quite extraordinary. The libs have had TWO budgets, not three. THe $17B deficit was actually $18B and was by far the smallest deficit of the 6 labor years and artificially created by putting payments forward into the first Liberal budget year.

And what you need to also remember is that the net debt increase under Labor was $200B as there was $48B in cash in the bank under Howard and that is now all gone.

deficit was actually $18B and was by far the smallest deficit of the 6 labor years

If you go back 6 you will find that the first was a surplus budget.

was $48B in cash in the bank under Howard and that is now all gone.

No there wasn't.

The libs have had TWO budgets, not three.

As stated the third figure is as stated in this years MYEFO and it is a conservative number it will likely be a higher debt in the final outcome.

as there was $48B $30B in cash in the bank under Howard and that is now all gone.

Funny what a Global financial crisis will do to a small saving.

Especially when they also has a massive mining boom at the same time. What about now?

Another dick measuring exercise. My surplus is bigger than yours. Your deficit is bigger than mine yadda yadda yadda.

For the record, the 2007-08 net financial balance was $19.754 billion. It's all on the public record in the budget historical data.

http://www.budget.gov.au/2015-16/content/overview/html/overview-35.htm

It's not even hard to see why it vanished. If one cares to look at the data you will find that over the last decade and a half spending hasn't changed an awful lot being within a percentage point of 25% of GDP. Revenue on the other hand collapsed from a high of 25.9% down to a low in 2010-11 of 21.5%. There's your deficit right there.

All the whinging about debt levels that are minor compared to the size of the economy and entirely manageable distracts from the more important issues like really shithouse total factor productivity performance. This does far more harm to real wages growth than any deficit ever will but nary a mention is heard.

That's all the unions fault.

What's the union's fault ?

Everything, my mum and dad said so and they vote Liberal, so it must be true.

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 117142 Melbourne Gender:	Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase Reply #95 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:07am Its time wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 5:58am: Impossible, the adults are in charge The Libbos have more than doubled our debt. We are going under just like Greece & nothing is being done about it.
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crocodile

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #96 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:38am

Bobby. wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 5:52am:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 10:47am:

Bobby. wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:16pm:

President Elect, The Mechanic wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:14pm:

we are in Debt..

Labor put us in this Massive Debt..

Labor are keeping us in Debt by blocking savings..

this will continue till the next election when hopefully we get a clear winner in government and in the senate..

Labor threw Billions of Dollars into the Budget knowing we couldn't afford it and expecting to lose the last election so as to make the next government look bad..

there was so much waste in the last Labor government it was just sickening and still is..

the filthy immigrants are costing us 100 Million dollars a year and will continue to rise.. another Labor Rippa..

so anyways..

to pay back your debts you either raise taxes or cut all of Labors irresponsible spending...

but it seems that the Leftard don't want any cuts.. or.. any tax increases..

and that's why most people know that the leftist is mentally handicapped.. durr Cheesy

Labor put us in this Massive Debt?

We've had more than a doubling of the debt since the Libbos came to power.

Get your facts straight & apologise to all the readers.

So bobby, to double the debt would require annual deficits of $140B each year.

Do you want to try again oh gullible one?

The national Govt. debt is $439 billion

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/

from memory it was less than half that under Labor.

Apologise to the readers.

The debt clock is for the alarmists. They haven't quite figured out the difference between gross and net debt.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Dnarever

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #97 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:47am

crocodile wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:38am:

The debt clock is for the alarmists. They haven't quite figured out the difference between gross and net debt.

Gross debt is a debt that is disgusting. Usage is " Oh that debt is gross".

Net debt can come from the purchase of an excessive number of fishing, prawn or crab nets. Most common among fishermen.

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crocodile

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #98 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:58am

Dnarever wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:47am:

crocodile wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 6:38am:

The debt clock is for the alarmists. They haven't quite figured out the difference between gross and net debt.

Gross debt is a debt that is disgusting. Usage is " Oh that debt is gross".

Net debt can come from the purchase of an excessive number of fishing, prawn or crab nets. Most common among fishermen.

There was a time when convention made the distinction between net and nett. Seems to have disappeared along many other spelling conventions. Even the spell checker doesn't like it.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Dnarever

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #99 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 7:00am

Can Turnbull get away with going to a DD election in order to avoid putting out a budget ?

How would this play out for him.

It virtually means that he has given up and has no confidence at all in his finance team, even he believes that they are incompetent.

Although this is true they are incompetent how does it bode for them if they happened to be re elected ? They get to produce another poor unfair incompetent budget after the election instead of before it ?

What do the Liberals campaign on this time around: Honesty, Integrity, economic management, The budget emergency, Industrial relations, Budget Surplus,

Maybe they just go with Turnbull's unjustified bright outlook and a couple of motivational speeches ?

They have done stop the boats, they could try stop the busses ?

Posted this in wrong topic.

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« Last Edit: Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 7:14am by Dnarever »

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mariacostel

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #100 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 12:41pm

John Smith wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 9:35pm:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 7:44pm:

Especially when they also has a massive mining boom at the same time.

lets just pretend that every other industry didn't collapse then Cheesy

That WOULD be pretending, because every other industry DIDNT collapse.

You really are not very smart.

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mariacostel

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #101 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 12:43pm

crocodile wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 9:49pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 6:50pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 8:32pm:

stunspore wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:17pm:

What's the point of a compensation package - that's taking money out and giving it back again - even if it is a lesser amount.

Assuming it is to compensate to the less well off (more likely like most lib policies it will compensate the more well off to a larger degree), it shows that the govt recognises how blunt an instrument this is.

Now how about target other areas of taxation say like super?

That has been answered earlier in the thread. Even if revenue neutral, there are different deadweight losses associated with the assortment of taxation regimes.

Deadweight loss of GST = 8c per dollar, income tax = 21c per dollar, company tax = 40c per dollar.

Not particularly hard to see where the push is coming from. Stuff all to do with tax breaks for the rich.

Point is - it's shifting the burden of taxation onto those who have already paid income tax on their gross and away from companies that pay tax on net income..... this dramatically skews your figures.... companies no way pay 40% tax on gross earnings.... and they end up paying considerably less than 21% on that, and if they were subjected to the same income tax regime as Josephine Bloggotovski - they would be paying top marginal rate.......

I will allow that you are simply mis-stating your view..... a simple error.....

Grapples, It seems that you are confused. Where did you get the figures of 40% and 21% respectively. Have you mistaken the deadweight losses for tax obligations ? They are not the same thing. Get yourself a decent macro textbook or google "deadweight losses" or "marginal excess burden".

By the way, companies pay tax on gross profit, not gross earnings. A point that escapes many around here. I graciously forgive your simple error.

The difficulties so many have with the concept of tax on profit and not on revenue or earnings is astonishing. The reason so many here are unemployed or have menial jobs suddenly makes a great deal of sense.

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crocodile

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #102 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 3:36pm

mariacostel wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 12:43pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 9:49pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 6:50pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 8:32pm:

stunspore wrote on Feb 1^st, 2016 at 6:17pm:

What's the point of a compensation package - that's taking money out and giving it back again - even if it is a lesser amount.

Assuming it is to compensate to the less well off (more likely like most lib policies it will compensate the more well off to a larger degree), it shows that the govt recognises how blunt an instrument this is.

Now how about target other areas of taxation say like super?

That has been answered earlier in the thread. Even if revenue neutral, there are different deadweight losses associated with the assortment of taxation regimes.

Deadweight loss of GST = 8c per dollar, income tax = 21c per dollar, company tax = 40c per dollar.

Not particularly hard to see where the push is coming from. Stuff all to do with tax breaks for the rich.

Point is - it's shifting the burden of taxation onto those who have already paid income tax on their gross and away from companies that pay tax on net income..... this dramatically skews your figures.... companies no way pay 40% tax on gross earnings.... and they end up paying considerably less than 21% on that, and if they were subjected to the same income tax regime as Josephine Bloggotovski - they would be paying top marginal rate.......

I will allow that you are simply mis-stating your view..... a simple error.....

Grapples, It seems that you are confused. Where did you get the figures of 40% and 21% respectively. Have you mistaken the deadweight losses for tax obligations ? They are not the same thing. Get yourself a decent macro textbook or google "deadweight losses" or "marginal excess burden".

By the way, companies pay tax on gross profit, not gross earnings. A point that escapes many around here. I graciously forgive your simple error.

The difficulties so many have with the concept of tax on profit and not on revenue or earnings is astonishing. The reason so many here are unemployed or have menial jobs suddenly makes a great deal of sense.

Unfortunately it's worse than that. Many are under the mistaken belief that PAYE employees pay tax on gross earnings. That is untrue. There are a host of allowable deductions available to those that have expenses incurred in the course of earning an income.

PAYE's have a tax free threshold, corporations do not. Despite many threads on the subject many can't accept that a tax on retained earnings is a tax on future labour productivity and therefore a tax on real wages growth. I'm dumbfounded.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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John Smith

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #103 - Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 3:53pm

mariacostel wrote on Feb 3^rd, 2016 at 12:41pm:

John Smith wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 9:35pm:

mariacostel wrote on Feb 2^nd, 2016 at 7:44pm:

Especially when they also has a massive mining boom at the same time.

lets just pretend that every other industry didn't collapse then Cheesy