Australian Politics Forum - The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase

stunspore Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5097 Gender:	Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase Reply #135 - Feb 5^th, 2016 at 6:07pm "Treasury modelling indicated a reform package centred on a GST rise and income tax cuts would not, after the hefty compensation bill, deliver a sufficient economic dividend to be worth the political price." From http://theconversation.com/grattan-on-friday-scott-morrison-has-been-wounded-in-...
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cods

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #136 - Feb 5^th, 2016 at 6:12pm

Its time wrote on Feb 4^th, 2016 at 9:46pm:

Lisa Jones wrote on Feb 4^th, 2016 at 9:28pm:

Ahhh...here is the GST topic.

Ok.

Quick question.

Is there anyone here who is happy with the proposed changes to the GST? If so, why?

You should be asking why anybody would be happy with a last ditch attempt at raising some revenue after abolishing a revenue stream in Carbon pricing that had 4.5billion worth of new renewable projects locked and loaded ready to go with a heap more density than the Libs model of trying to flog a dead as the stalking policy horsee in mining the libs have been trying to sell the public for 3 years .

really??? so you havent noticed our exports going down the drain...the mining boom is over and the c arbon tax drove in the finale nail.......ask Palmer??? if you dont believe a lib

the mining tax produced nothing...

gawd you lefties have a good imagination...

I guess if a lefty says it.. then its happened... Grin

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 51474 Gender:	Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase Reply #137 - Feb 5^th, 2016 at 6:40pm Ah, so you can’t refute it! Good to know. How can company tax be such a heavy deadweight loss when a lot of companies pay little tax anyway? How can the GST not be a heavy deadweight loss when workers pay it every time they spend some money? Cute concept, no real–world reality behind it.
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crocodile

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #138 - Feb 5^th, 2016 at 7:04pm

Jovial Monk wrote on Feb 5^th, 2016 at 6:40pm:

Ah, so you can’t refute it! Good to know.

How can company tax be such a heavy deadweight loss when a lot of companies pay little tax anyway?

How can the GST not be a heavy deadweight loss when workers pay it every time they spend some money?

Cute concept, no real–world reality behind it.

Sounds more like you do not understand what a deadweight loss actually is.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Dnarever

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #139 - Feb 5^th, 2016 at 7:10pm

crocodile wrote on Feb 5^th, 2016 at 7:04pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Feb 5^th, 2016 at 6:40pm:

Ah, so you can’t refute it! Good to know.

How can company tax be such a heavy deadweight loss when a lot of companies pay little tax anyway?

How can the GST not be a heavy deadweight loss when workers pay it every time they spend some money?

Cute concept, no real–world reality behind it.

Sounds more like you do not understand what a deadweight loss actually is.

Not many people do and in fact even most economists ignore it.

It is only really a tax index that rates the economic impact of a tax, in other words if it is tough on business it is a bad tax and if it is tough on people it is a good tax.

That is the reason that a 10% GST rates as a DW tax of 8% and a 30% business tax rates as a 40% DW tax.

Not many people think it a real indication of anything relevant its main use is to justify not taxing business and taxing the community instead.

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crocodile

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #140 - Feb 5^th, 2016 at 8:56pm

Dnarever wrote on Feb 5^th, 2016 at 7:10pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 5^th, 2016 at 7:04pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Feb 5^th, 2016 at 6:40pm:

Ah, so you can’t refute it! Good to know.

How can company tax be such a heavy deadweight loss when a lot of companies pay little tax anyway?

How can the GST not be a heavy deadweight loss when workers pay it every time they spend some money?

Cute concept, no real–world reality behind it.

Sounds more like you do not understand what a deadweight loss actually is.

Not many people do and in fact even most economists ignore it.

It is only really a tax index that rates the economic impact of a tax, in other words if it is tough on business it is a bad tax and if it is tough on people it is a good tax.

That is the reason that a 10% GST rates as a DW tax of 8% and a 30% business tax rates as a 40% DW tax.

Not many people think it a real indication of anything relevant its main use is to justify not taxing business and taxing the community instead.

That's a load of horseshit too. Stamp duties on property exchange has a high deadweight loss and is seen as a bad tax and is highly personal. Ditto for import tariffs. To suggest that most economists disregard it is just a demonstration of profound ignorance.

Quote:

That is the reason that a 10% GST rates as a DW tax of 8% and a 30% business tax rates as a 40% DW tax.

You really don't have a clue. GST at 10% is a low DW because such a low rate has very little effect on demand elasticity. Income taxes are around a 20% DW because the supply of labour is rather inelastic. Regardless of the tax rate, people still have to work. Corporate taxes have high DW because capital is highly mobile making the supply very elastic. It is easy for the owners of the capital to make choices about where and when they use it. Not so much for labour.

It really isn't that hard to work out.

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« Last Edit: Feb 5^th, 2016 at 9:41pm by crocodile »

Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Jovial Monk

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #141 - Feb 5^th, 2016 at 9:33pm

crocodile wrote on Feb 5^th, 2016 at 7:04pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Feb 5^th, 2016 at 6:40pm:

Ah, so you can’t refute it! Good to know.

How can company tax be such a heavy deadweight loss when a lot of companies pay little tax anyway?

How can the GST not be a heavy deadweight loss when workers pay it every time they spend some money?

Cute concept, no real–world reality behind it.

Sounds more like you do not understand what a deadweight loss actually is.

I say again:

How can company tax be such a heavy deadweight loss when a lot of companies pay little tax anyway?

Can you address that, now or later, alligator please?

You also blabbered on about taxing retained earnings. Companies are taxed on profits (OK maybe private companies are still penalised for retaining earnings but that doesn’t change anything) not retained earnings.

For projects, new computer system say or new machinery, companies borrow money. Company tax really affects shareholders dividend distributions.

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crocodile

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #142 - Feb 5^th, 2016 at 10:55pm

I say again:

Quote:

How can company tax be such a heavy deadweight loss when a lot of companies pay little tax anyway?

Really, a quick look at the budget shows that corporate taxes make up almost one quarter of the nation's entire federal budget. Now add in all the state's payroll taxes. Stop making stuff up.

Quote:

Can you address that, now or later, alligator please?

Already have, earlier on in the thread. But just for your own edification you may read some scholarly article on the subject

http://www.treasury.gov.au/~/media/Treasury/Publications%20and%20Media/Publicati...

http://taxreview.treasury.gov.au/content/html/commissioned_work/downloads/kpmg_e...

http://www.treasury.gov.au/PublicationsAndMedia/Publications/2014/Economic-Round...

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/tax-analysis/Documents/ota10...

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/tax-analysis/Documents/ota10...

Quote:

You also blabbered on about taxing retained earnings. Companies are taxed on profits (OK maybe private companies are still penalised for retaining earnings but that doesn’t change anything) not retained earnings

.

You're confused. I said no such thing. Retained earnings are what is left from gross profit after tax has been paid and the distributions to the shareholders have been effected.

Quote:

For projects, new computer system say or new machinery, companies borrow money. Company tax really affects shareholders dividend distributions.

Corporations are free to use retained profits for whatever purpose they wish including the acquisition of updated capital equipment. They are not obliged to borrow the funds.

If company tax affected only the shareholder's distributions it would not have any impact if the rate decreased. The value of the imputed credit would diminish by the same amount leaving the shareholder to make up the difference between the corporate rate and their own marginal income tax rate.

Of course your statement is not true as the value of the retained earnings diminishes with taxation as well. This has a direct bearing on the rate of labour productivity growth and therefore real wages growth.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Jovial Monk

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #143 - Feb 5^th, 2016 at 11:02pm

Corporations should be contributing a LOT more tax. Why cannot you see that?

Retained earnings are not used to finance the acquisition of major plant & equipment, debt is.

Company tax is a major part of total revenue take because Tip cut income tax too much in the 2001–7 real estate boom.

So much wrong with your graph and concept, ditch both and use common sense.

And our tariffs are too low. Adjust to the level of our main trading partners: the way they are no wonder we have no major manufacturing left! Yes, will impose some costs but so does the low $A. It will see some industry stay here and maybe some come back. the Libs’ idiot FTAs cost us our car makers and the parts makers too.

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crocodile

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #144 - Feb 6^th, 2016 at 10:35pm

Corporations should be contributing a LOT more tax. Why cannot you see that?

Because there's nothing to see. Corporate tax contributions to total government revenue have been steadily increasing since the early 80s. 10% in 1983 to the 20 something % today.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22increased+reliance+on+company+tax%22&biw=1...

This is despite a tax rate in the 80s of 49c in the dollar. Notwithstanding the tax rate been gradually lowered up until 2001 to 30c in the dollar, tax revenue has more than doubled in real terms.

It has also been pointed out in this thread with citations from reputable academic sources that the burden of corporate taxation falls more heavily on the wage earner than it does on the shareholder.

Smaller retained earnings means less reinvestment into capital stock and consequent falls in productivity, effectively cutting off the only means available to the employees of sustaining real wages growth.

Of course I just expect you to just stick your head in the sand and claim that is all lies.

http://www.treasury.gov.au/PublicationsAndMedia/Speeches/2014/20140704

Retained earnings are not used to finance the acquisition of major plant & equipment, debt is.

Can't really add to that except that you are dead wrong. If you think that company owners just park their retained earnings in the bank and not use them for capital stock then it just shows how absolutely clueless you are in this area.

Company tax is a major part of total revenue take because Tip cut income tax too much in the 2001–7 real estate boom.

Horseshit. Company tax contributions have risen steadily since the early eighties. Long before Tip's tax cuts. All with substantial reductions in the company tax rate and being slugged with a super guarantee component.

So much wrong with your graph and concept, ditch both and use common sense.

I don't think so. You really just don't know.

And our tariffs are too low. Adjust to the level of our main trading partners: the way they are no wonder we have no major manufacturing left! Yes, will impose some costs but so does the low $A. It will see some industry stay here and maybe some come back. the Libs’ nice person FTAs cost us our car makers and the parts makers too.

Tariffs just force the costs up, not down. Manufacturing is leaving because we are being left behind in the productivity stakes and corporate tax reform.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Dnarever

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Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase
Reply #145 - Feb 7^th, 2016 at 12:49am

Jovial Monk wrote on Feb 5^th, 2016 at 9:33pm:

crocodile wrote on Feb 5^th, 2016 at 7:04pm:

Jovial Monk wrote on Feb 5^th, 2016 at 6:40pm:

Ah, so you can’t refute it! Good to know.

How can company tax be such a heavy deadweight loss when a lot of companies pay little tax anyway?

How can the GST not be a heavy deadweight loss when workers pay it every time they spend some money?

Cute concept, no real–world reality behind it.

Sounds more like you do not understand what a deadweight loss actually is.

I say again:

How can company tax be such a heavy deadweight loss when a lot of companies pay little tax anyway?

Can you address that, now or later, alligator please?

You also blabbered on about taxing retained earnings. Companies are taxed on profits (OK maybe private companies are still penalised for retaining earnings but that doesn’t change anything) not retained earnings.

For projects, new computer system say or new machinery, companies borrow money. Company tax really affects shareholders dividend distributions.

How can company tax be such a heavy deadweight loss when a lot of companies pay little tax anyway?

Croc deals mostly in textbook theory - so if they did happen to accidentally pay some tax it would be a dead weight.

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 51474 Gender:	Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase Reply #146 - Feb 7^th, 2016 at 6:44am Yeah, finds a theory he likes and sticks to it regardless of facts.
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Armchair_Politician Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 28490 Gender:	Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase Reply #147 - Feb 7^th, 2016 at 6:55am A poll by ninemsn found only 36% are in favour of a republic.
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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 51474 Gender:	Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase Reply #148 - Feb 7^th, 2016 at 6:56am Wrong thread ArmPit.
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stunspore Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5097 Gender:	Re: The Majority Of Voters Say No To GST Increase Reply #149 - Feb 7^th, 2016 at 7:22am Generous to assume he studied economics to know any textbook theory.
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