Australian Politics Forum - Detrimental effects of compulsory voting

Neferti

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Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting
Reply #75 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 6:49am

Fuzzball wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 6:44am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 10:56pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 3:07pm:

Its time wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 3:06pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 3:03pm:

Fuzzball wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 1:23pm:

Not forgetting that it's undemocratic.

No it's not. Furthermore, do you know how many people living under undemocratic rule would give their right arm to be able to cast a vote? We're lucky we have that right. Is it really that much of an obligation to be asked to tick a few boxes on some paper every few years? Poor petal!

I cant remember the figures but there was a lot of no shows and donkey votes last elecrion , unsurprising given what was available

Then that's their loss because they get no say in shaping this country, which is a shame because I take pride in being able to say my vote counted and I had a say in which direction my country will take. By the way, the figure you're looking for is 5.92% of votes at the 2013 election were marked as "informal" (source: http://electionwatch.edu.au/australia-2013/analysis/informal-voting-rise).

weren't you one of the righties claiming you would cast a informal vote rather than vote for turncoat or labor at the next election? Cheesy

No dopey, I said if Turncoat leads the party into the next election I would not vote Liberal, and I also said I would never under any circumstances vote Labor or Green. I didn't say I would cast an "informal" vote.

I said the same thing, as did several others. Roll Eyes

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Armchair_Politician

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Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting
Reply #76 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 6:57am

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 7:33pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 7:09pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 6:07pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 3:50pm:

I don't believe you've ever been a scrutineer ...

I couldn't care less what you believe, but I've scrutinised at at least six elections (state and federal).

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 3:50pm:

... you'd know that informal votes include those marked incorrectly (i.e. incorrectly numbering boxes or putting ticks or crosses or circles around candidate names, etc), those with unauthorised marks (eg signatures or initials other than a mark by an election official in the corner of the ballot paper) and also those with drawings of fairies or words like "Rudd sucks"...

What I said, to correct you, is that donkey votes and informal votes are not the same thing.

Donkey votes are not regarded as informal.

WRONG!!!

A donkey vote is one that numbers all boxes in sequential order, either from top to bottom or bottom to top.

They are perfectly legitimate, and they are not put aside as informal - they are included in the tally.

You got it wrong. Time to move on.

No, I'm 100% correct.

Donkey votes are not informal votes.

They are completely legitimate, and they are included in the final tally.

"Definition of a donkey vote: A donkey vote occurs when a voter numbers every box on the ballot paper in order from top to bottom, without regard to the logic of the preferences. In some cases, a voter might start at the bottom of the ballot paper and number them in order to the top.

"A DONKEY VOTE IS A FORMAL VOTE. IT WILL BE COUNTED AND IT WILL GO TO WHOEVER IS MARKED NUMBER 1."

http://australianpolitics.com/2013/09/04/what-happens-to-donkey-votes.html

"A vote is regarded as informal if the ballot paper has not been completed properly. Informal ballot papers are not counted towards any candidate but are set aside.

"According to section 268 of the Commonwealth Electoral Act (1918), a vote is informal if:

"the ballot paper is not marked at all

"the ballot paper does not have the official mark and has not been initialled by the polling official, and the ballot paper is not authentic in the opinion of the Divisional Returning Officer (DRO)

"the ballot paper has writing on it which identifies the voter
in the case of an absent vote, the ballot paper is not contained in the declaration envelope

"the voter has not completed a full preferential vote. There are savings measures to keep formal some ballot papers marked incompletely or incorrectly."

"Donkey vote

"A ballot paper marked 1, 2, 3, 4 straight down (or up) a ballot paper."

http://www.aec.gov.au/footer/Glossary.htm

And, from Antony Green:

"The Sustainable Population Party polled just 0.9% of the vote but delivered a remarkable 72.5% of preferences to Labor, this high flow from a low vote largely due to the donkey vote."

"The fact that Liberal Andrew Hastie is higher on the ballot paper than Labor's Matt Keogh gives Hastie a narrow advantage by the donkey vote, but the advantage is unchanged on the 2013 election when Don Randall drew top spot on the ballot.

"So the donkey vote favours the Liberal Party in Canning, but it is neutral in its impact on the swing needed compared to the 2013 election because the Liberal Party had the donkey vote advantage in 2013 and again in 2015."

http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2015/09/preferences-donkey-votes-and-the-can...

Yeah, you're still wrong and just digging yourself a deeper hole. Now try finding a way out of it.

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Bam

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Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting
Reply #77 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:08am

Bias_2012 wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 9:51pm:

Compulsory voting also violates this UN Human Right ...

Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Compulsory voting does not meet the definition of slavery simply because it is something one must do to escape a penalty. Otherwise everything that attracts a penalty would meet this definition.

Slavery is forced labour for no pay with threat of punishment. It's far more similar to Work for the Dole than the modest impost of voting once every three years.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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Bam

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Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting
Reply #78 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:14am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 6:57am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 7:33pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 7:09pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 6:07pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 3:50pm:

I don't believe you've ever been a scrutineer ...

I couldn't care less what you believe, but I've scrutinised at at least six elections (state and federal).

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 3:50pm:

... you'd know that informal votes include those marked incorrectly (i.e. incorrectly numbering boxes or putting ticks or crosses or circles around candidate names, etc), those with unauthorised marks (eg signatures or initials other than a mark by an election official in the corner of the ballot paper) and also those with drawings of fairies or words like "Rudd sucks"...

What I said, to correct you, is that donkey votes and informal votes are not the same thing.

Donkey votes are not regarded as informal.

WRONG!!!

A donkey vote is one that numbers all boxes in sequential order, either from top to bottom or bottom to top.

They are perfectly legitimate, and they are not put aside as informal - they are included in the tally.

You got it wrong. Time to move on.

No, I'm 100% correct.

Donkey votes are not informal votes.

They are completely legitimate, and they are included in the final tally.

"Definition of a donkey vote: A donkey vote occurs when a voter numbers every box on the ballot paper in order from top to bottom, without regard to the logic of the preferences. In some cases, a voter might start at the bottom of the ballot paper and number them in order to the top.

"A DONKEY VOTE IS A FORMAL VOTE. IT WILL BE COUNTED AND IT WILL GO TO WHOEVER IS MARKED NUMBER 1."

http://australianpolitics.com/2013/09/04/what-happens-to-donkey-votes.html

"A vote is regarded as informal if the ballot paper has not been completed properly. Informal ballot papers are not counted towards any candidate but are set aside.

"According to section 268 of the Commonwealth Electoral Act (1918), a vote is informal if:

"the ballot paper is not marked at all

"the ballot paper does not have the official mark and has not been initialled by the polling official, and the ballot paper is not authentic in the opinion of the Divisional Returning Officer (DRO)

"the ballot paper has writing on it which identifies the voter
in the case of an absent vote, the ballot paper is not contained in the declaration envelope

"the voter has not completed a full preferential vote. There are savings measures to keep formal some ballot papers marked incompletely or incorrectly."

"Donkey vote

"A ballot paper marked 1, 2, 3, 4 straight down (or up) a ballot paper."

http://www.aec.gov.au/footer/Glossary.htm

And, from Antony Green:

"The Sustainable Population Party polled just 0.9% of the vote but delivered a remarkable 72.5% of preferences to Labor, this high flow from a low vote largely due to the donkey vote."

"The fact that Liberal Andrew Hastie is higher on the ballot paper than Labor's Matt Keogh gives Hastie a narrow advantage by the donkey vote, but the advantage is unchanged on the 2013 election when Don Randall drew top spot on the ballot.

"So the donkey vote favours the Liberal Party in Canning, but it is neutral in its impact on the swing needed compared to the 2013 election because the Liberal Party had the donkey vote advantage in 2013 and again in 2015."

http://blogs.abc.net.au/antonygreen/2015/09/preferences-donkey-votes-and-the-can...

Yeah, you're still wrong and just digging yourself a deeper hole. Now try finding a way out of it.

And your evidence? Just your say so?

Greg has offered proof. You have not. Now, who do you think is mounting a more convincing argument? Not you! See, you have offered no evidence. Not one shred of evidence to support your point. Just endless bleating: "You're wrong! You're wrong!"

No, YOU'RE the one that is wrong, obviously because you do not seem to know what a donkey vote actually is. Now grow a pair and admit you were wrong.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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cods

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Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting
Reply #79 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:20am

ian wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 1:03am:

the fine is for not turning up at the polling booth and having your name ticked off.. there is no penalty for not voting.

EXACTLY!... shh some have trouble with that... Roll Eyes

.

plus dont turn up pay the fine...its like speeding fines... does anyone say its COMPULSORY NOT TO SPEED............

no its just if you do this is what happens...

same with voting... if you dont this is what happens..

if it breaks your heart to VOTE....then pay the small fine Roll Eyes

its not as if they will cut off your hand is it?

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BigOl64

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Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting
Reply #80 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:20am

Dnarever wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 8:45pm:

If you are Australian you are expected to vote, it is part of the responsibility of being Australian.

You don't want to vote you don't want to be Australian.

Bullsh1t!

Nearly every single first world democracy other than us, has the right to vote and I dare say every eligible person of these countries consider themselves citizens whether they vote or not.

What a typically stupid comment from the compulsory voting fascists.

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Dnarever

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Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting
Reply #81 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:22am

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 12:16am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 11:20pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 11:17pm:

Compulsory voting is absolutely retarded.
I have always believed this. There is a reason pretty much every other country in the western world doesn't do it.

there is a reason why pretty much absolutely every other country ranks below Australia (with the exception of Norway) when ranking best countries to live in Cheesy

I doubt it's because of the voting system. Australia is incredibly apolitical, and the reason for that is compulsory voting; no one cares when we are forced to vote between sh1t and sh1t. Having optional voting would at least smarten the electorate up and make it more about ideology as opposed to who offers better tax cuts.

smarten the electorate up and make it more about ideology

You don't see the rusted on vote on ideology people as being a big problem.

It may well be the uninterested who have a brief look at politics every 3 years who actually make a dispassionate logical vote for what they believe to be the best option for Australia and who most often determine the election result.

Swinging voters are on the whole probably not concentrated among the day to day knowledgeable political followers.

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BigOl64

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Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting
Reply #82 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:25am

John Smith wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 11:20pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 11:17pm:

Compulsory voting is absolutely retarded.
I have always believed this. There is a reason pretty much every other country in the western world doesn't do it.

there is a reason why pretty much absolutely every other country ranks below Australia (with the exception of Norway) when ranking best countries to live in Cheesy

And compulsory voting has absolutely nothing to do with it and only a cretin would imply it did.

The only reason we have compulsory voting is there is free money for politicians, the more people forced to vote the more chance of making free money for yourself or your arty.

It is a scam and you cretins are too stupid to realise your are being done over.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78311 Gender:	Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting Reply #83 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:31am Bias_2012 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 12:15am: ave another go John, try Compulsory Voting ... gezz you might get it sooner or later ohh, silly me ... I forgot how anally stupid you were ... I'll try again ohh please ... you want to liken compulsory voting to slavery? Get real
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John Smith

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Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting
Reply #84 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:36am

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 12:16am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 11:20pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 11:17pm:

Compulsory voting is absolutely retarded.
I have always believed this. There is a reason pretty much every other country in the western world doesn't do it.

there is a reason why pretty much absolutely every other country ranks below Australia (with the exception of Norway) when ranking best countries to live in Cheesy

I doubt it's because of the voting system. Australia is incredibly apolitical, and the reason for that is compulsory voting; no one cares when we are forced to vote between sh1t and sh1t. Having optional voting would at least smarten the electorate up and make it more about ideology as opposed to who offers better tax cuts.

our voting system determines our political outcomes which in turn determine how we live.

Scrapping compulsory voting would see the biggest reduction mainly from the working class. The same class that a lot of polices are made to target in order to buy votes.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 78311 Gender:	Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting Reply #85 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:38am Bias_2012 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 12:39am: You're making sense for a change. OZ is at a tipping point, any more socialism, any more debt, any more expansion of government, then we'll start to go under. any more socialism? stop acting like such drama queens. we're a long way from socialism
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Dnarever

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Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting
Reply #86 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:39am

BigOl64 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:20am:

Dnarever wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 8:45pm:

If you are Australian you are expected to vote, it is part of the responsibility of being Australian.

You don't want to vote you don't want to be Australian.

Bullsh1t!

Nearly every single first world democracy other than us, has the right to vote and I dare say every eligible person of these countries consider themselves citizens whether they vote or not.

What a typically stupid comment from the compulsory voting fascists.

Nearly every single first world democracy other than us

Every one of them are not us.

Do you want to emulate a sheep or is there some logical point ?

I like that we have a great system that is different and in fact in Australia it is considered to be your responsibility as an Australian to vote.

As an Australian you get the benefits and a few responsibilities. Being expected to vote once every few years is hardly unreasonable.

One of the benefits is that we do get representative government even though we don't always like the result. There have been instances in these other countries where they can not claim to have got a representative election result.

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John Smith

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Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting
Reply #87 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:40am

Fuzzball wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 6:44am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 10:56pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 3:07pm:

Its time wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 3:06pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 3:03pm:

Fuzzball wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 1:23pm:

Not forgetting that it's undemocratic.

No it's not. Furthermore, do you know how many people living under undemocratic rule would give their right arm to be able to cast a vote? We're lucky we have that right. Is it really that much of an obligation to be asked to tick a few boxes on some paper every few years? Poor petal!

I cant remember the figures but there was a lot of no shows and donkey votes last elecrion , unsurprising given what was available

Then that's their loss because they get no say in shaping this country, which is a shame because I take pride in being able to say my vote counted and I had a say in which direction my country will take. By the way, the figure you're looking for is 5.92% of votes at the 2013 election were marked as "informal" (source: http://electionwatch.edu.au/australia-2013/analysis/informal-voting-rise).

weren't you one of the righties claiming you would cast a informal vote rather than vote for turncoat or labor at the next election? Cheesy

No dopey, I said if Turncoat leads the party into the next election I would not vote Liberal, and I also said I would never under any circumstances vote Labor or Green. I didn't say I would cast an "informal" vote. But this illustrates why IMO compulsory voting is undemocratic. Being compelled to vote even though you disagree with a party or having to cast an 'informal vote' as a result, because not voting or attending the polling station (freedom of choice) is punishable by a fine is undemocratic.

was I talking to you fool? My reply was to armpits comment, not yours. Cheesy

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cods Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88048	Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting Reply #88 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:40am when I see more and more people getting elected thanks to preferences... then shortly after the elections they are allowed to dump the team that got them elected and morph into an independent... the more I am inclined to think.. whats the point!
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Bias_2012

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Re: Detrimental effects of compulsory voting
Reply #89 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:41am

Bam wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:08am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Jan 25^th, 2016 at 9:51pm:

Compulsory voting also violates this UN Human Right ...

Article 4.

No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Compulsory voting does not meet the definition of slavery simply because it is something one must do to escape a penalty. Otherwise everything that attracts a penalty would meet this definition.

Slavery is forced labour for no pay with threat of punishment. It's far more similar to Work for the Dole than the modest impost of voting once every three years.

"slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms." From that, it's reasonable to deduce that ... Slavery shall be prohibited in all it's forms

servitude
noun
born into a life of servitude: slavery, enslavement, bondage, subjugation, subjection, domination; historical serfdom. ANTONYMS liberty.

Note that the antonym of servitude is "liberty"

What would you want if we become a Republic, are you one of those who would say "A republic won't work without compulsory voting ? Answer that

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