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Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human (Read 2099 times)
Sun Tzu
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Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Jan 4th, 2016 at 8:57pm
 
This man raped a 14 year old Iraqi girl and then shot and burned alive her and her family. His reason: he didn't believe Iraqis were human. His colleagues and his officers tried to cover it up.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340207/I-didnt-think-Iraqis-humans-says...

Quote:
'I didn't think of Iraqis as humans,' says U.S. soldier who raped 14-year-old girl before killing her and her family.

Steven Green, pictured in April 2009, is serving five life sentences for rape and murder in Iraq. He has launched appeal but doesn't have 'much hope' of ever being freed.

An Iraq War veteran serving five life terms for raping and killing a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and killing her parents and sister says he didn't think of Iraqi civilians as humans after being exposed to extreme warzone violence.

Steven Green, a former 101st Airborne soldier, in his first interview since the 2006 killings, claimed that his crimes were fuelled in part by experiences in Iraq's violent 'Triangle of Death' where two of his sergeants were gunned down.

He also cited a lack of leadership and help from the Army.
'I was crazy,' Green said in the exclusive telephone interview from federal prison in Tucson, Arizona. 'I was just all the way out there. I didn't think I was going to live.'

Green talked about what led up to the March 12, 2006, attack on a family near Mahmoudiya, Iraq, that left him serving five consecutive life sentences.

The former soldier, who apologised at sentencing for his crimes, said he wasn't seeking sympathy nor trying to justify his actions - killings prosecutors described at trial in 2009 as one of the worst crimes of the Iraq war.

But Green said people should know his actions were a consequence of his circumstances in a war zone.

'If I hadn't ever been in Iraq, I wouldn't be in the kind of trouble I'm in now,' Green said. 'I'm not happy about that.'
Green was discharged with a 'personality disorder' before federal charges were brought against him.

Prosecutors sought a death sentence, but a federal jury in Paducah, Kentucky, opted for five life sentences on charges including the rape and murder of 14-year-old Abeer Qassim Al-Janabi and the shooting deaths of her mother, father and younger sister.

Four other soldiers were convicted in military court for various roles in the attack. Three remain in military prison.

Green is challenging the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act, which allows the federal government to charge an American in civilian court for alleged crimes committed overseas. He was the first former soldier convicted under the statute. The U.S. 6th Circuit Court of Appeals has scheduled arguments for January 21.
Green is challenging the constitutionality of that law, saying it gives the executive branch too much leeway over whom to prosecute. Prosecutors say the law should be upheld.

'I've got some hope, but I'm not delusional about it,' said Green, now 25. 'I hope it works. But, whenever they give you multiple life sentences, they're not planning on letting you out.'

Green didn't testify at trial. During sentencing, he apologized and said he expects to face 'God's justice' when he dies.

Abeer Qassim al-Janabi, Green's 14-year-old victim, whose parents and sister were also murdered in the attack. Green said deaths of two of his colleagues had 'messed him up real bad'
Abeer Qassim al-Janabi, Green's 14-year-old victim, whose parents and sister were also murdered in the attack. Green said deaths of two of his colleagues had 'messed him up real bad'
A 19-year-old high school dropout from Midland, Texas, Green joined the Army after obtaining his high school equivalency diploma from a correspondence school.

He said signing up was easy, born of a sense of duty to defend his country and the opportunities that offered.

'I thought I'd be neglecting my duty if I didn't,' Green said. 'You've got a career, you've got a job. It gives you opportunities to do things with your life.'

The military placed Green with the Fort Campbell-based 101st Airborne. Upon arriving in Iraq, Green said, his training to kill, the rampant violence and derogatory comments by other soldiers against Iraqis served to dehumanise that country's civilian population.

A turning point came on December 10, 2005, Green said, when a previously friendly Iraqi approached a traffic checkpoint and opened fire.

The shots killed Staff Sgt. Travis L. Nelson, 41, instantly. Sgt. Kenith Casica, 32, was hit in the throat. Casica died as soldiers raced him aboard a Humvee to a field hospital.

Green said those deaths 'messed me up real bad.'

The deaths intensified Green's feelings toward all Iraqis, whom soldiers often called by a derogatory term. 'There's not a word that would describe how much I hated these people,' Green said. 'I wasn't thinking these people were humans.'
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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #1 - Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm
 
It's a problem with war - de-humanising the enemy is part of the deal because without that people find it very hard to kill.  It's almost as if a 'higher calling' is needed to persuade your average teenager to actually kill someone, and it is part of military training.  Also part is the current weapons training, which relies on a lot of video and non-lethal training, and this dulls the line between killing a human being and an object.

The Iraqis in Desert Storm I were overwhelmed by the propensity of the Western forces to actually go for the kill, something they themselves were almost ritual about in many cases, like 'counting coup' for the Sioux.  Not culturally acclimated to high-tech war with a specific mission focus.

Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged.

That is one reason why there was the move to trial in a civilian court.  The other is that the military justice system, without a finding of death, allows time off for good and soldierly behaviour while incarcerated, thus leading to drastically reduced time served for sentence in some cases.

Clayton Lonetree springs to mind...
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #2 - Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:40pm
 
Yes Grappler, Dave Grossman wrote an excellent book which goes some way towards explaining this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #3 - Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:42pm
 
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm:
It's a problem with war - de-humanising the enemy is part of the deal because without that people find it very hard to kill.  It's almost as if a 'higher calling' is needed to persuade your average teenager to actually kill someone, and it is part of military training.  Also part is the current weapons training, which relies on a lot of video and non-lethal training, and this dulls the line between killing a human being and an object.

The Iraqis in Desert Storm I were overwhelmed by the propensity of the Western forces to actually go for the kill, something they themselves were almost ritual about in many cases, like 'counting coup' for the Sioux.  Not culturally acclimated to high-tech war with a specific mission focus.

Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged.

That is one reason why there was the move to trial in a civilian court.  The other is that the military justice system, without a finding of death, allows time off for good and soldierly behaviour while incarcerated, thus leading to drastically reduced time served for sentence in some cases.

Clayton Lonetree springs to mind...


You overlooked Lt. William Calley of USMC. Murdered 500 Vietnamese women, children and old people in a slaughter and never served a day in jail.

Commander Will Rogers of USA shot down Iranian airliner killing 290 people. He got a medal and no trial or court martial.
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #4 - Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:47pm
 
The fog of war, unless you have never been in  that position, who can judge. The military teaches you to dehumanise the enemy as Grappler said. Without this sort of training, wars can never be won.
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #5 - Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:50pm
 
ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:47pm:
The fog of war, unless you have never been in  that position, who can judge. The military teaches you to dehumanise the enemy as Grappler said. Without this sort of training, wars can never be won.




Well the war wasn't won. Through the actions of the Coalition of the Willing, we have another generation drenched in hate.

We have ISIS.
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #6 - Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:53pm
 
ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:40pm:
Yes Grappler, Dave Grossman wrote an excellent book which goes some way towards explaining this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Killing



SLAM Marshal found that at most, nine out of ten shots fired were aimed at enemy soldiers.

He wrote a great book about the D-Day US Airborne landings etc - Night Drop.  At one time, the US Military found that only the Airborne, Marines and Rangers were actually 'go-forward'.  Most GI Infantrymen just wanted to get home in one piece, and even the Airborne at Carentan Causeway were reluctant to go forward, though that was their first commitment to battle, and thus was understandable.  The few who did go across in the first stages did magnificently against the Germans.

http://www.historynet.com/battle-to-control-carentan-during-world-war-ii.htm

Footnote:- Longy, and others in various times and places, have accused me of Googling for all my info - thing is this - without knowing what I was looking for in advance - how would I know what to Google?

I had a critic suggest to me once that I read a book on Vietnam to get my info - wrong - I read the book to CONFIRM what I'd already said time and again - which it did 100%.
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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #7 - Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm
 
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm:
Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged.


PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #8 - Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm
 
I couldnt accuse you of googling this Grappler. Most people would be lost if this was even mentioned. Also, its good that someone else here has the life experience to get this.
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #9 - Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:57pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm:
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm:
Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged.


PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen.




Abso-smacking-lutely.

MORE attention should be paid to their psychological state after the fact than before it.
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ian
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #10 - Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:59pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm:
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm:
Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged.


PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen.
Steven Green the person in the OP has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, this wasnt caused by his training or exposure to battle. His actions had nothing to do with PTSD. And PTSD does not cause psychosis.
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #11 - Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:01am
 
ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:59pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm:
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm:
Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged.


PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen.
Steven Green the person in the OP has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, this wasnt caused by his training or exposure to battle. His actions had nothing to do with PTSD. And PTSD does not cause psychosis.



No but it can cause intense hallucinations or flashbacks that can be akin to psychosis.
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #12 - Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:03am
 
ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:59pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm:
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm:
Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged.


PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen.
Steven Green the person in the OP has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, this wasnt caused by his training or exposure to battle. His actions had nothing to do with PTSD. And PTSD does not cause psychosis.


No doubt - but the question is would he have raped a girl and murdered her entire family if he wasn't sent to war? Seems unlikely given his own testimony that he considered the inhabitants of the country that he was fighting in to not be human.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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ian
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #13 - Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:05am
 
mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:01am:
ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:59pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm:
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm:
Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged.


PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen.
Steven Green the person in the OP has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, this wasnt caused by his training or exposure to battle. His actions had nothing to do with PTSD. And PTSD does not cause psychosis.



No but it can cause intense hallucinations or flashbacks that can be akin to psychosis.
Flashbacks yes, these are not akin to psychosis.
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Re: Perspective: US soldier thought Iraqis not human
Reply #14 - Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:06am
 
ian wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:05am:
mothra wrote on Jan 5th, 2016 at 12:01am:
ian wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:59pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:56pm:
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Jan 4th, 2016 at 11:26pm:
Sadly, this seems to have overflowed with some..... but there have always been such in the military.  I believe I've cited for you before the case of a US 1st Cavalry captain in Vietnam convicted over the deaths of civilians when he was not actually present, on the basis that as the commander he held responsibility (Yamashita Decision), and his (commissioned) subordinate, who was directly responsible, being deemed to be 'mentally insufficient' (dumb) and being discharged from service rather than charged.


PTSD - an absolutely inevitable consequence of sending young men and women off to experience the horrors of war. Not all soldiers become psychotic like this - most just suffer silently and drive their loved ones away. But all will be permanently damaged to varying degrees. I started a thread a while back arguing that since we are willing send these young men and women to certain and permanent psychological trauma, we should be willing to pay a fair price for that in terms of gold star treatment and support for returned servicemen.
Steven Green the person in the OP has been diagnosed with a personality disorder, this wasnt caused by his training or exposure to battle. His actions had nothing to do with PTSD. And PTSD does not cause psychosis.



No but it can cause intense hallucinations or flashbacks that can be akin to psychosis.
Flashbacks yes, these are not akin to psychosis.



Yes. They can be.
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