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USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding (Read 2515 times)
Lafayette
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #30 - Dec 25th, 2015 at 11:33am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Dec 25th, 2015 at 10:40am:
The US allows who it wants into the US

Absolutely correct.
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Maqqa
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #31 - Dec 26th, 2015 at 8:43am
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 25th, 2015 at 2:15am:
Soren wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 8:55pm:
And that's why I said RELIGIOUS profiling, not racial profiling, Mr Expert-my-arse.
Mohammed, peace be on him, what??

And how are you going to profile people based on religion exactly? Have a test for them when they arrive, say by forcing them to eat swine? Or are you just looking for turbans and headscarves.

Religious profiling is a stupid idea. It won't work and can't be implemented.


Just because it's not a perfect system does not mean it shouldn't be used
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #32 - Dec 26th, 2015 at 9:00am
 
Maqqa wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 8:43am:
Lafayette wrote on Dec 25th, 2015 at 2:15am:
Soren wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 8:55pm:
And that's why I said RELIGIOUS profiling, not racial profiling, Mr Expert-my-arse.
Mohammed, peace be on him, what??

And how are you going to profile people based on religion exactly? Have a test for them when they arrive, say by forcing them to eat swine? Or are you just looking for turbans and headscarves.

Religious profiling is a stupid idea. It won't work and can't be implemented.


Just because it's not a perfect system does not mean it shouldn't be used




quite true....the more you work on something the better it gets...look aty the advancements with dna.....everything has a reason for it...and profiling is something that is becoming more and more sophisticated  as time goes by...my son in law works in forensics.. and its scary where that is going...

I am sure one day we will all be microchipped...
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Lafayette
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #33 - Dec 26th, 2015 at 9:25am
 
Maqqa wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 8:43am:
Just because it's not a perfect system does not mean it shouldn't be used

It not being a perfect system isn't the reason why it shouldn't be used. The fact that it makes innocent people feel like they are being treated like criminals and may lead to them feeling persecuted and not a part of the society that they are in may ultimately lead to radicalization is why it shouldn't be used.


Also the fact that it is completely ineffective against real terrorists is the reason why it shouldn't be used.
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #34 - Dec 26th, 2015 at 10:17am
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 25th, 2015 at 10:37am:
Sun Tzu wrote on Dec 25th, 2015 at 10:29am:
That doesn't justify USA first approving their travel and then stopping them at the airport.

If there was any justification for prohibiting their entry they should not have been granted permission in the first instance.

There is no evidence of any of them being on any watch list.

It seems this USA practice of last minute interception at boarding is not infrequent.

There could be more to it than is what is apparent.


The family was to enter the USA on the Visa Waiver Program so it's possible that something stated on their Advance Passenger Data rendered them ineligible........or at least triggered an alert suggesting among other things, possible ineligibility. It would be one explanation for last minute interception. 


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Sun Tzu
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #35 - Dec 26th, 2015 at 11:57am
 
The process seems arbitrary and inconsistent. If somebody at US immigration knew that they would not be permitted to enter USA why did they not contact them before interception at aircraft boarding time?

Process appears to be discriminatory when no explanation is given.
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #36 - Dec 26th, 2015 at 12:30pm
 
Sun Tzu wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 11:57am:
The process seems arbitrary and inconsistent. If somebody at US immigration knew that they would not be permitted to enter USA why did they not contact them before interception at aircraft boarding time?

Process appears to be discriminatory when no explanation is given.


They applied for their visas over the Internet, I imagine if you tick all the right boxes the 'approval' online is automated until those applications are inspected manually, when a red flag pops up........and it did on this occasion when checked in-depth. From what has now come to light, they were perfectly right to stop this lot from entering the US; even getting on the plane............ it's just a pity they couldn't redirect their journey to the Middle East where their masters are based........and kick them out of UK for good.. 
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Lafayette
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #37 - Dec 26th, 2015 at 12:30pm
 
Sun Tzu wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 11:57am:
The process seems arbitrary and inconsistent. If somebody at US immigration knew that they would not be permitted to enter USA why did they not contact them before interception at aircraft boarding time?

They probably wanted to see if the travelers were carrying anything in their bags or on their persons that they could exploit for their intelligence value. Once you send through your belongings in customs it could be checked when you are unaware of it.

Sun Tzu wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 11:57am:
Process appears to be discriminatory when no explanation is given.

No government is obliged to give an explanation to anyone as to why they can't visit there. Nor does anyone have the right to visit.

It could also be a part of a larger intelligence operation.
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Sun Tzu
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #38 - Dec 26th, 2015 at 12:38pm
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 12:30pm:
Sun Tzu wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 11:57am:
The process seems arbitrary and inconsistent. If somebody at US immigration knew that they would not be permitted to enter USA why did they not contact them before interception at aircraft boarding time?

They probably wanted to see if the travelers were carrying anything in their bags or on their persons that they could exploit for their intelligence value. Once you send through your belongings in customs it could be checked when you are unaware of it.

Sun Tzu wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 11:57am:
Process appears to be discriminatory when no explanation is given.

No government is obliged to give an explanation to anyone as to why they can't visit there. Nor does anyone have the right to visit.

It could also be a part of a larger intelligence operation.


Do you mean like the intelligence operation that failed to prevent 9/11?

There is no intelligence in the USA immigration system. They can arbitrarily refuse entry and do so as they please. If they had any real evidence against any person they prohibit they could easily have performed interrogations by allowing them into the USA and then intercepting them there. However they can't do that because when people enter the USA they have rights.

Before people enter the USA they have no rights against injustice by USA immigration. That is why arbitrary unexplained prohibition is practiced at country of departure.
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« Last Edit: Dec 26th, 2015 at 1:07pm by Sun Tzu »  

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Lafayette
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #39 - Dec 26th, 2015 at 1:16pm
 
Sun Tzu wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 12:38pm:
Do you mean like the intelligence operation that failed to prevent 9/11?

9/11 was a massive intelligence failure. Particularly with regards to the CIA not sharing information with the FBI. The FBI was actually searching for at least one of the hijackers and wasn't even aware that he was in the USA but the CIA were.

Sun Tzu wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 12:38pm:
There is no intelligence in the USA immigration system. They can arbitrarily refuse entry and do so as they please. If they had any real evidence against any person they prohibit they could easily have performed interrogations by allowing them into the USA and then intercepting them there. However they can't do that because when people enter the USA they have rights.

There is a great deal of intelligence in the US immigration system, but it does have flaws. It is not perfect but no system is.

You suggest that if they had evidence against a person that they would be able to let them in, and then intercept the person when that person is in the US.

That is only if the person is currently planning an attack and ready to carry it out, and only if you are aware of their plot.

However, that is often not the case. Instead, through the intelligence process the USA may become aware of things about a person that may put them as a potential threat on the threat matrix and as a result, would rather not have that person visit the US in the first place. That information is not necessarily limited to what the passengers may have said and done in the past, but includes what their associations are including people they may be related to or know in the US.

This isn't James Bond stuff.. It's usually based on having a person assessed for being a threat on a threat matrix.

There is usually a lot more done behind the scenes to come to a decision like this.

Sun Tzu wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 12:38pm:
Before people enter the USA they have no rights against injustice by USA immigration. That is why arbitrary unexplained prohibition is practiced at country of departure.

They have no rights when they arrive either. They're technically not in the US until they pass customs and immigration and if customs and immigration decide the person is a threat then they'll get sent back to where they came from.
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #40 - Dec 26th, 2015 at 1:30pm
 
ACLU is fighting the Nazi actions of U.S. Customs and Border Protection.

https://www.aclu.org/news/border-agents-harass-americans-taking-pictures-threate...

Quote:
Unconstitutional Policy Stifles Free Speech Right to Document Abuses, Says San Diego ACLU

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: (212) 549-2666; media@aclu.org

SAN DIEGO – U.S. Customs and Border Protection’s policy and practice of prohibiting the use of cameras and video recorders at or near U.S. ports of entry is unconstitutional, said the American Civil Liberties Union Border Affiliates and the law firm Morrison & Foerster LLP in a lawsuit filed late yesterday. Clients in the case, two U.S. citizens were attempting to document environmental harms and human rights abuses when border agents stopped, detained, and interrogated them and then deleted their photographs. The citizens hope that the court will order the Department of Homeland Security to end its policy of interfering with Americans’ free speech right to take photographs and make video recordings of matters of political and human rights interest.

“The border is not a Constitution-free zone,” said David Loy, legal director of the San Diego ACLU. “Border agents are not above the law, and the law guarantees our right to hold them accountable by documenting their conduct.”

The suit charges that Ray Askins, a U.S. citizen who lives in Mexicali, and Christian Ramirez, a U.S. citizen who lives in San Diego, were stopped in separate incidents on the U.S. side of the border.

Askins was conducting research for a report about excessive pollution caused by the inspection system at the border for an environmental conference when he was stopped. Several border agents told him they would “smash the camera” if he did not delete photos he took of a secondary inspection area at the Calexico Port of Entry. He was attempting to demonstrate that the Customs and Border Protection (CBP) does not make full and proper use of inspection areas, creating longer delays at the border crossing and thus causing more pollution from emissions of vehicles waiting in line to cross. Askins said that the officers who confronted him behaved aggressively even though Askins was not posing a threat or resisting. He was handcuffed and subjected to an invasive and embarrassing physical search. His camera was confiscated and, when it was returned to him, all but one photograph he had just taken at the port of entry had been deleted.

Ramirez, who works for Alliance San Diego, a nonprofit social justice group that, among other things, monitors human rights issues along the U.S.-Mexico border, had just crossed the border when he observed male CBP agents patting down women. He snapped several photos, because it appeared the agents were only searching women. Immediately, two men who appeared to be private security officers approached him, asked for his personal identification documents, and asked him to stop taking photographs. CBP agents soon appeared, confronted Ramirez and his wife, and asked why he was taking photographs.  When he refused, an Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent said, “Give me one other reason to take you down.” The officer took the Ramirezes’ passports and his phone, and deleted all the photos Ramirez had just taken.

Official CBP security policies prohibit visitors at CBP-controlled facilities from using cameras and video recording devices without prior approval from the senior CBP official or someone she or he designates. The ACLU lawsuit charges that the policies violate the First Amendment and that Americans have the free speech right to document the public operations of law enforcement agencies.

“Americans have a right to chronicle the activities of law enforcement,” said M. Andrew Woodmansee, partner with Morrison & Foerster. “The Department of Justice recently has stated that the right of a citizen to gather information about government officials –including photographs—‘serves a cardinal First Amendment interest in protecting and promoting the free discussion of governmental affairs.’  While the government has an interest in guaranteeing the security of the United States, it should have no role in stifling speech or violating our right to be secure in our person and our papers.”

The lawsuit seeks to stop the government from preventing or interfering with the public’s First Amendment speech rights and asks that Askins receive damages for the violations he experienced.

The ACLU Border Affiliates comprise the ACLU affiliates in San Diego, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas.
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #41 - Dec 28th, 2015 at 2:36pm
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 25th, 2015 at 2:15am:
Soren wrote on Dec 24th, 2015 at 8:55pm:
And that's why I said RELIGIOUS profiling, not racial profiling, Mr Expert-my-arse.
Mohammed, peace be on him, what??

And how are you going to profile people based on religion exactly? Have a test for them when they arrive, say by forcing them to eat swine? Or are you just looking for turbans and headscarves.

Religious profiling is a stupid idea. It won't work and can't be implemented.


It is implemented by Muslims and works for them. A lot of Muslim murderers, from Kenya to Syria and India, from Thailand to Labia,  do use religious profiling for the purposes of carrying out their Islamic religious duty of jihad. If Muslims can religiously profile others I do not see why others couldn't religiously profile Muslims.

In most Muslims countries religion is identified on various documents already so they are doing it already among themselves. We should accept their own self-profiling. If they say they are Muslims we should accept that and treat them accordingly.

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Lafayette
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #42 - Dec 28th, 2015 at 3:25pm
 
Soren wrote on Dec 28th, 2015 at 2:36pm:
It is implemented by Muslims and works for them. A lot of Muslim murderers, from Kenya to Syria and India, from Thailand to Labia,  do use religious profiling for the purposes of carrying out their Islamic religious duty of jihad. If Muslims can religiously profile others I do not see why others couldn't religiously profile Muslims.

In most Muslims countries religion is identified on various documents already so they are doing it already among themselves. We should accept their own self-profiling. If they say they are Muslims we should accept that and treat them accordingly.


Oh, so let's become like Saudi Arabia and Syria. Yeah, great values.
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #43 - Dec 28th, 2015 at 5:58pm
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 9:25am:
Maqqa wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 8:43am:
Just because it's not a perfect system does not mean it shouldn't be used

It not being a perfect system isn't the reason why it shouldn't be used. The fact that it makes innocent people feel like they are being treated like criminals and may lead to them feeling persecuted and not a part of the society that they are in may ultimately lead to radicalization is why it shouldn't be used.


Also the fact that it is completely ineffective against real terrorists is the reason why it shouldn't be used.


So you're going to appease & acquiesce to them on that basis?

two men & 9 children .... one who is 19 (hardly classed as a child)?

Where are their mothers?

Sounds like good enough grounds for a check by the US & a check by UK authorities as well.
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Re: USA prevents UK Muslim family from flight boarding
Reply #44 - Dec 28th, 2015 at 6:12pm
 
Syrian born British woman denied entry to Australia. The spooks of Western Countries are competing with each other to see which one can cause the biggest furor. She was 4 years old when her family left Syria.

http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/dec/24/british-syrian-born-woman-...

Quote:
A British woman who was born in Syria has been refused entry into Australia, after her visa was issued and then revoked without explanation.

Zahra Ramadani, 30, from west London, was due to fly to Sydney on Thursday with a friend but was contacted by the Australian High Commission on Wednesday to say her visa had been revoked and that she was no longer eligible for entry into Australia.

The incident comes in the wake of several controversial visa refusals. The Australian government was criticised this week after it initially refused to grant visas to the family of a dying Pakistani student, who is too sick to fly home and is being cared for in a homeless shelter.

In the UK a British imam was the second British Muslim to report he had been refused entry to the US after his business visa was revoked without explanation as he attempted to board a plane to New York.

Ramadani, a project manager in business development for Marks and Spencer, told the Guardian she felt the only explanation for the rejection of her visa to Australia is her place of birth.

Her family originally fled to Syria from Iraq in 1980 before seeking refuge in the UK in 1989 when she was four years old. She said: “I’m really disappointed because I’m a British citizen and I have lived here most of my life. I’m law-abiding and I lead a pretty normal Londoner’s life. I am not remotely religious.”

“I didn’t even know I needed a visa. I thought, well, I’m British, there’s the commonwealth, you don’t need one.”
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