Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Yadda

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #60 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 7:25pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:04pm:

If you are looking for a definition of liberty you will never get one that codifies ever conceivable interaction among men.

The definition itself assumes people with a genuine desire for liberty and a respect for the rights of others which would solve all such issues amicable and reasonably.

The failure of freedom everywhere is that such people are not the majority - hence judicial systems, police and often... conflict.

Well said.

In any sane world/society, imo, liberty cannot be extended to everyone [...just because he/'everyone' is a fellow who lives in a society of men ].

Liberty, is too precious to be extended to everyone.

e.g.
Persons with a persistent, or a violent criminal nature,    ....should have their right to their liberty taken away, imo.

And i would argue that such a person, who is a persistent, or a violent criminal, should be removed from society, PERMANENTLY.

Q.
Would to do such a thing, be an abuse of that persons 'human rights' ?

I would ask;
Why should a persistent, or a violent criminal,    ....be entitled to the same rights, as those persons who are law abiding ?

e.g.
Does [or should] personal liberty [which is attributed to every individual within OUR society], give a drunk, walking home, past my home, the right to throw an empty glass bottle though my lounge room window at 3.00 am ???

Why not ?

Q.
Isn't such conduct, by that drunken person, simply an expression of his liberty,    ....to be drunk and unruly when he wishes to be ???

Again, i would argue that personal Liberty, can only 'work' in a society of men,    ....if persistent lawbreakers are separated/removed from that society, permanently.

'Normal' criminal behaviour - in mankind
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1293669294/0#0

Quote:

A simple definition of SANITY/INSANITY.

Typically, an unrestrained sane person will act in ways which are harmless to others, and in ways which are creative, and productive [for himself, others, and society].

And typically, and conversely, an unrestrained INSANE person will act in ways which are harmful and destructive to himself, and, or, others around him.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 22655 A cat with a view	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #61 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 7:27pm bump
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Yadda

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #62 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 6:20am

Liberty and criminality cannot readily exist together [...in the same individual or in one community].

In the same way that light and darkness, cannot exist together in one place.

Because each condition/concept is incompatible with the presence of the other.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1447886435/5#5
Quote:

Human freedom is inextricably bound up with the personal and moral responsibility of the individual, imo.

No ?????

Unfortunately, it seems true, that some/many people will only ever choose to abuse the freedoms [and rights] which they have access to.

Especially so, imo, if those freedoms and rights have simply been 'gifted' to persons/individuals [and not 'purchased' with some cost].

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #63 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 6:53am

Removing a people from a society is what prison is for. Having said that, once they've served their time then they should be welcomed back into society with their full rights.

However, I also believe that the death penalty should be applied to murderers, rapists, armed robbers, etc unless there are serious mitigating circumstances.

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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #64 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:10am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 6:53am:

Removing a people from a society is what prison is for. Having said that, once they've served their time then they should be welcomed back into society with their full rights.

However, I also believe that the death penalty should be applied to murderers, rapists, armed robbers, etc unless there are serious mitigating circumstances.

I'm absolutely opposed to the death penalty. Nothing good comes from it.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #65 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:15am

mothra wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:10am:

I'm absolutely opposed to the death penalty. Nothing good comes from it.

I suppose we'll just have to disagree on that one. I think if applied properly and only to cases where there is no serious mitigating circumstances nor a shred of doubt after the appeals process that it can be an excellent deterrent.

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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #66 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:17am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:15am:

mothra wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:10am:

I'm absolutely opposed to the death penalty. Nothing good comes from it.

I suppose we'll just have to disagree on that one. I think if applied properly and only to cases where there is no serious mitigating circumstances nor a shred of doubt after the appeals process that it can be an excellent deterrent.

Yet studies have shown categorically that it doesn't work as a deterrent.

The only reason for the death penalty is revenge. A poor substitute for justice.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #67 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:21am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:15am:

mothra wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:10am:

I'm absolutely opposed to the death penalty. Nothing good comes from it.

I suppose we'll just have to disagree on that one. I think if applied properly and only to cases where there is no serious mitigating circumstances nor a shred of doubt after the appeals process that it can be an excellent deterrent.

There are many flaws inherent in the first court and appeals system. If anything the 'appeals' system here is worse than yours, and is a travesty of justice, and in reality nothing more than a rubber stamp for any petty Hitler in a uniform or on the bench's violence against the community.

Executing someone on the basis of failed appeals is a highly dangerous thing, as clearly shown by repeated exonerations on DNA etc.... quite obviously the tip of the iceberg.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Yadda

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #68 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:24am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 6:53am:

Removing a people from a society is what prison is for.

Having said that, once they've served their time then they should be welcomed back into society with their full rights.

You are dreaming.

You are living in a dream world.

The justice system in our society is 'broke', imo.

The justice system in our society is dysfunctional, imo.

The justice system in our society does not serve the purpose, that it was/is intended to do.

Why, is it 'broke' ?

IMO, because the people who have charge of it, today, ARE NOT -WORTHY- TO HAVE CHARGE OF IT.

They are persons who are either morally incompetent [idiots!], or persons who have been proven to be criminally negligent [in the exercise of their professional responsibilities], imo.

i.e.
They too, are the type of persons who should have been removed from our society, imo!!

.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1431117115/20#20
Quote:

.....these two crime types below are not deemed to be 'permissible behaviour', but the sentences given out today, don't seem to reflect the seriousness of the crimes, imo.

e.g.
Two similar crimes;
Murder
and,
Negligent killing [or negligent behaviour, causing death].

Dictionary;
negligence = = failure to take proper care over something. breach of a duty of care which results in damage.

People used to hang for murder.

But today, often a convicted murderer can expect to be released on parole, with less than 10 years prison served.

Is that acceptable ?

And negligent killing.
e.g. High on illicit drugs or alcohol, a person kills another/others, while driving a motor vehicle.

What is the sentence ?

Persons seem to be sentenced to less than 5 years in prison for this type of killing.

Is that acceptable ?

.

Yadda said....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1431117115/18#18
Quote:

IMO, within the last half century or so, Western societies have been observing increasing instances of criminal behaviour in some/many individuals.

And 'experts' in humanism and sociology, have then been convincing policy makers that we [society] should reclassify some/many criminal behaviours, as something which should be tolerated, by other members of society.

And that is when a CRIME, becomes, and is viewed as, permissible behaviour.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1434160480/2#2

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« Last Edit: Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 8:09am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #69 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:31am

mothra wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:10am:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 6:53am:

Removing a people from a society is what prison is for. Having said that, once they've served their time then they should be welcomed back into society with their full rights.

However, I also believe that the death penalty should be applied to murderers, rapists, armed robbers, etc unless there are serious mitigating circumstances.

I'm absolutely opposed to the death penalty.

Nothing good comes from it.

Except, that the death penalty prevents recidivism, among people who are, ....among people who have proven themselves to be, .....wanna-be homicidal maniacs. !!! Cheesy

Yadda said.....
Quote:

The justice system in our society is 'broke', imo.

The justice system in our society is dysfunctional, imo.

e.g.

---------- >

QUESTION;

Why weren't EVERY ONE of these individuals identified by the UK authorities, ....then detained, .....and after a proper legal process [treason ? threatening to kill, incitement to kill, threatening to end the power of the legal state of the UK, threatening to end the common peace of the people of the UK], .....sentenced to detention for at least 50 years, within a [purpose built] internment camp! ???

------------- >

IMAGE...

THOSE PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST, 2006, IN LONDON READ.....

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #70 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:43am

mothra wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:10am:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 6:53am:

Removing a people from a society is what prison is for. Having said that, once they've served their time then they should be welcomed back into society with their full rights.

However, I also believe that the death penalty should be applied to murderers, rapists, armed robbers, etc unless there are serious mitigating circumstances.

I'm absolutely opposed to the death penalty.

Nothing good comes from it.

If your concern is about the danger of the justice system killing innocent people, well, that is a problem with the PROCESS, of the justice system itself.

But that existence of error within the justice system, ....should not have any bearing or any influence on the severity of sentences which have been prescribed [by society] for criminal activity.

INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE BEING CONVICTED ???

Then fix the problem in the PROCESS!!!!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #71 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:59am

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:56pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:51pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:47pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:38pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:29pm:

Gee, how original. Something like live and let live, or is it more complicated according to what course you are doing at Uni?

I'm 30 years old and have been out of uni for quite some time.

Being dismissive doesn't help your case given the fact that the quote that I posted was from one of the greatest thinkers of the last 500 years. He was incredibly educated.

Guess what? I don't care. I do my own thinking. Is that okay within this thing called 'liberty.'

A clever man would listen to others. Of course, you are not one of those and considers his own opinions superior to others. No wonder you joined PUP. It is their mantra... and look how well that worked out!

Well, I guess you'll just have to live with the fact that I have had a better education than you, and have a greater intellect. Don't worry, though, melielongtime suffered the same ignomy. Perhaps you could do age two, together? Just a thought.

There is little evidence to support any claim of over-intelligence by you. You really do sound and post like a typical taxi driver.

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #72 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 8:00am

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:01pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:49pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:47pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:29pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river t a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

It comes down to whether or not the property was justly acquired or not. Whoever has it first owns it. Particularly if they've worked the land.

So being first entitles you to something? Why?

This gives people that come before great power over those that come later. It allows them to build dynasties of wealth and power.

The alternative is that coming AFTER gives you the right, which is worse. The point is that there is always somewhere else to go and work. Your 'freedom' does not give you right to take from another nor does it give you the right to condemn 'wealth and power' which are both aspects of freedom.

It's no worse or better. It's just about the order of things that happen. If one order can give you rights, then so can another. I'm not actually arguing that it does, mind you, because practically speaking it's unfeasible.

Freedom is important, but it's not absolute, and there are good reasons for it to be restricted in certain circumstances. Being happy is probably more important

Side question: do you think being free brings happiness? Do you think happiness even requires freedom?

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #73 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 8:03am

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:53pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:44pm:

Ah tank... I was assuming groundwater bore or river access. Mind you, give it time. The governments are already well on the way to charging you for the water YOU collect.

What, did you dob me in or something ? I don't collect it, my house roof does, it's just there when I need it. I got both tank and town water, and I know which is the cheapest and free of "tyranny"

Plenty of residents don't have town water out here, I couldn't believe it at first, but Councils are either in debt or not rich or water installation is not cost effective, so folks in many small towns and villages are left to their own devices to arrange their own water supply. In Liberty terms, they must take that liberty, government or no government. Usually the set up is a tank and a pump to pump water into the house through normal piping, turn the tap on and the pump automatically fires up

You got to take lots of liberties out here in the sticks, but one day I asked the Council if I could fell a gum tree that's too close to the house. The attendant at the desk said: "What sort of tree is it" ? to which I answered "common Gum tree" ... she said: "I'll just check to see if it's on the endangered list" ... I kid you not, she checked, came back and said "Oh that one is ok"

That is no surprise. In the city you basically cannot cut down a tree at all.

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Swagman

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #74 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 8:11am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 11:51am:

Thomas Jefferson, the author of the US Declaration of Independence stated:
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

I concur with this definition. You, as an adult, should be able to do whatever you wish, so long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

As a progressive tax slave..........I'm with that.

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