Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Bias_2012

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #45 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:43pm

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:29pm:

It probably costs more than most people pay for town water.

Crikey! didn't think a simple water tank could draw so much attention in a thread about liberty. The tank came with the house for heaven's sake. It was full when I came and just keeps filling, raining at the moment so tank is overflowing

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #46 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:44pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:20pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:01pm:

Only if you obtain it unlawfully.

lol you're a card maria, trying to incriminate me ? when you've got a large tank holding more H2o than I ever need per month and usually much longer than that, you'll get it for free too

Ah tank... I was assuming groundwater bore or river access. Mind you, give it time. The governments are already well on the way to charging you for the water YOU collect.

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Kytro

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #47 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:47pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:29pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river t a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

It comes down to whether or not the property was justly acquired or not. Whoever has it first owns it. Particularly if they've worked the land.

So being first entitles you to something? Why?

This gives people that come before great power over those that come later. It allows them to build dynasties of wealth and power.

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #48 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:47pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:55pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:51pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:36pm:

That's precisely why there is no such thing as liberty. It does not exist anywhere.

Untrue, I gave you a perfect example of rightful liberty, that is what limitations should we be subjected to and the limitations show that a government shouldn't prevent us from doing anything unless it infringes on the equal rights of others.

Other factors like environment etc are irrelevant. To suggest that we could never truly be free because of gravity as some means to detract from tangible liberty that can be achieved through adhering to the principle of rightful liberty is preposterous and asinine.

Ya see those two words. They are qualifiers or conditions, and as soon as they exist...............out goes liberty.

You really ought to be discussing the limits of conditions which will

acceptably

impose on some lofty utopian notion called liberty.

I wonder if you are aware that everyone else in this thread already understands that we dont live in Utopia? We already understand that freedom and liberty are not absolute anymore than any other social conventions are absolute.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #49 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:47pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:38pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:29pm:

Gee, how original. Something like live and let live, or is it more complicated according to what course you are doing at Uni?

I'm 30 years old and have been out of uni for quite some time.

Being dismissive doesn't help your case given the fact that the quote that I posted was from one of the greatest thinkers of the last 500 years. He was incredibly educated.

Guess what? I don't care. I do my own thinking. Is that okay within this thing called 'liberty.'

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #50 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:49pm

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:47pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:29pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river t a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

It comes down to whether or not the property was justly acquired or not. Whoever has it first owns it. Particularly if they've worked the land.

So being first entitles you to something? Why?

This gives people that come before great power over those that come later. It allows them to build dynasties of wealth and power.

The alternative is that coming AFTER gives you the right, which is worse. The point is that there is always somewhere else to go and work. Your 'freedom' does not give you right to take from another nor does it give you the right to condemn 'wealth and power' which are both aspects of freedom.

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #51 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:51pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:47pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:38pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:29pm:

Gee, how original. Something like live and let live, or is it more complicated according to what course you are doing at Uni?

I'm 30 years old and have been out of uni for quite some time.

Being dismissive doesn't help your case given the fact that the quote that I posted was from one of the greatest thinkers of the last 500 years. He was incredibly educated.

Guess what? I don't care. I do my own thinking. Is that okay within this thing called 'liberty.'

A clever man would listen to others. Of course, you are not one of those and considers his own opinions superior to others. No wonder you joined PUP. It is their mantra... and look how well that worked out!

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Kytro

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #52 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:52pm

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:29pm:

You don't see any benefits to being free, unless it "does something" to you? You still have to do things for yourself. It's a concept, not a dishwasher.

It's esoteric. The degree of freedom just describes what limits exist. They can come from any number of sources. The fact that some are aligned to government and law, and others to your ability makes little difference to the outcome.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #53 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:56pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:51pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:47pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:38pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:29pm:

Gee, how original. Something like live and let live, or is it more complicated according to what course you are doing at Uni?

I'm 30 years old and have been out of uni for quite some time.

Being dismissive doesn't help your case given the fact that the quote that I posted was from one of the greatest thinkers of the last 500 years. He was incredibly educated.

Guess what? I don't care. I do my own thinking. Is that okay within this thing called 'liberty.'

A clever man would listen to others. Of course, you are not one of those and considers his own opinions superior to others. No wonder you joined PUP. It is their mantra... and look how well that worked out!

Well, I guess you'll just have to live with the fact that I have had a better education than you, and have a greater intellect. Don't worry, though, melielongtime suffered the same ignomy. Perhaps you could do age two, together? Just a thought.

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #54 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:58pm

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:47pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:29pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river t a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

It comes down to whether or not the property was justly acquired or not. Whoever has it first owns it. Particularly if they've worked the land.

So being first entitles you to something? Why?

This gives people that come before great power over those that come later. It allows them to build dynasties of wealth and power.

Being first makes you the only one who has ever bothered to work the land intensively. Since then it has changed hands over and over while 'dynasties' have risen and fallen, based on the merits of the people in them. It is no different to the person who starts a business owning that business. When people first farmed this land, it was effectively free. Almost no-one wanted it. It took a long time and a lot of effort just to get people to go there.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Kytro

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #55 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:01pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:49pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:47pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:29pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river t a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

It comes down to whether or not the property was justly acquired or not. Whoever has it first owns it. Particularly if they've worked the land.

So being first entitles you to something? Why?

This gives people that come before great power over those that come later. It allows them to build dynasties of wealth and power.

The alternative is that coming AFTER gives you the right, which is worse. The point is that there is always somewhere else to go and work. Your 'freedom' does not give you right to take from another nor does it give you the right to condemn 'wealth and power' which are both aspects of freedom.

It's no worse or better. It's just about the order of things that happen. If one order can give you rights, then so can another. I'm not actually arguing that it does, mind you, because practically speaking it's unfeasible.

Freedom is important, but it's not absolute, and there are good reasons for it to be restricted in certain circumstances. Being happy is probably more important

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Kytro

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #56 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:02pm

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:58pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:47pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:29pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river t a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

It comes down to whether or not the property was justly acquired or not. Whoever has it first owns it. Particularly if they've worked the land.

So being first entitles you to something? Why?

This gives people that come before great power over those that come later. It allows them to build dynasties of wealth and power.

Being first makes you the only one who has ever bothered to work the land intensively. Since then it has changed hands over and over while 'dynasties' have risen and fallen, based on the merits of the people in them. It is no different to the person who starts a business owning that business. When people first farmed this land, it was effectively free. Almost no-one wanted it. It took a long time and a lot of effort just to get people to go there.

Based on the merits Grin

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #57 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:11pm

Very few people have parents so rich that they don't have to work for a living. For every one that apparently owes his success to rich parents, there are ten who squandered their parents gift. Our "dynasties" are short lived, precisely because our freedom precludes the sort of antics that were classically employed to maintain them.

That, plus the game changes every generation.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Neferti

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #58 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:20pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:56pm:

Well, I guess you'll just have to live with the fact that I have had a better education than you, and have a greater intellect. Don't worry, though, melielongtime suffered the same ignomy. Perhaps you could do age two, together? Just a thought.

IF you have to puff yourself up to "intellectual" it is obvious that your background/childhood was less than "middle class". You are a FREE Uni Whitlam person.
Well done!

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Bias_2012

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #59 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:53pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:44pm:

Ah tank... I was assuming groundwater bore or river access. Mind you, give it time. The governments are already well on the way to charging you for the water YOU collect.

What, did you dob me in or something ? I don't collect it, my house roof does, it's just there when I need it. I got both tank and town water, and I know which is the cheapest and free of "tyranny"

Plenty of residents don't have town water out here, I couldn't believe it at first, but Councils are either in debt or not rich or water installation is not cost effective, so folks in many small towns and villages are left to their own devices to arrange their own water supply. In Liberty terms, they must take that liberty, government or no government. Usually the set up is a tank and a pump to pump water into the house through normal piping, turn the tap on and the pump automatically fires up

You got to take lots of liberties out here in the sticks, but one day I asked the Council if I could fell a gum tree that's too close to the house. The attendant at the desk said: "What sort of tree is it" ? to which I answered "common Gum tree" ... she said: "I'll just check to see if it's on the endangered list" ... I kid you not, she checked, came back and said "Oh that one is ok"

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