Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #465 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:54pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:48pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:43pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:32pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Quote:

We are born with rights

Isn't it more accurate to say that we were born in a Country whose Laws bestow upon its citizens certain rights, responsibilities and obligations?

No, if a state has to legislate laws to give you something, it is not a right. You are born with rights and that is what makes them inalienable. The state can't remove them.

Just like if the state passed a law saying that all Jews must be killed. Does that mean that Jews no longer have the right to life? What about a law stating that all Africans must be enslaved, does that mean that Africans then lose their right to liberty?

That's the problem with Australians, they generally don't understand the concept of rights because they've never had to fight for them. Everything is a privilege to you guys.

List these rights I was born with please? And also tell me if someone born in (say) Syria today also has them.

The rights to life, liberty and justly acquired property. Yes, someone in Syria born today has those rights.

These are not your only rights, but all other rights are connected to these three. Essentially it is that you have the right to do as you please, so long as you don't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

Oh so cute and motherly. List the rights I was born with, one by one, specifically. For example:

1. Free ice cream every second Sunday.......
2 and on. Etc etc etc etc.........

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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #466 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:55pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:50pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:25pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:23pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:48pm:

They are bestowed upon all humans by law.

Chicken Egg ? Could it be that laws are drafted up to protect our natural rights ? Personally I don't subscribe to your idea that laws give us rights, laws are there to penalize us if we don't obey them

What natural rights Bias? And what do you mean by rights in that context?

Why do you think laws are in place ? They're there to protect our natural rights. Everyone has the natural right to put food in their mouths and the natural right to live, as examples. Laws are there to punish those who would prevent us from doing so

Would you agree with that ?

I suppose when i consider the word "natural" i'm inclined towards envisioning something that is part of the natural world. There are no "rights" accompanying nature, only instincts. We are not born with the "right " to eat for example. We eat at the sufferance of our parents. There are of course laws that surround that, that protect our "right" to be fed.

Perhaps that is just semantics. I do know what you are trying to say.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #467 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:56pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:50pm:

Why do you think laws are in place ? They're there to protect our natural rights. Everyone has the natural right to put food in their mouths and the natural right to live, as examples. Laws are there to punish those who would prevent us from doing so

Would you agree with that ?

Personally I'd say that most laws now infringe on rights and don't protect them.

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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #468 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:58pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:54pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:48pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:43pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:32pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Quote:

We are born with rights

Isn't it more accurate to say that we were born in a Country whose Laws bestow upon its citizens certain rights, responsibilities and obligations?

No, if a state has to legislate laws to give you something, it is not a right. You are born with rights and that is what makes them inalienable. The state can't remove them.

Just like if the state passed a law saying that all Jews must be killed. Does that mean that Jews no longer have the right to life? What about a law stating that all Africans must be enslaved, does that mean that Africans then lose their right to liberty?

That's the problem with Australians, they generally don't understand the concept of rights because they've never had to fight for them. Everything is a privilege to you guys.

List these rights I was born with please? And also tell me if someone born in (say) Syria today also has them.

The rights to life, liberty and justly acquired property. Yes, someone in Syria born today has those rights.

These are not your only rights, but all other rights are connected to these three. Essentially it is that you have the right to do as you please, so long as you don't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

Oh so cute and motherly. List the rights I was born with, one by one, specifically. For example:

1. Free ice cream every second Sunday.......
2 and on. Etc etc etc etc.........

All listed here:

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #469 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 3:00pm

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:58pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:54pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:48pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:43pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:32pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Quote:

We are born with rights

Isn't it more accurate to say that we were born in a Country whose Laws bestow upon its citizens certain rights, responsibilities and obligations?

No, if a state has to legislate laws to give you something, it is not a right. You are born with rights and that is what makes them inalienable. The state can't remove them.

Just like if the state passed a law saying that all Jews must be killed. Does that mean that Jews no longer have the right to life? What about a law stating that all Africans must be enslaved, does that mean that Africans then lose their right to liberty?

That's the problem with Australians, they generally don't understand the concept of rights because they've never had to fight for them. Everything is a privilege to you guys.

List these rights I was born with please? And also tell me if someone born in (say) Syria today also has them.

The rights to life, liberty and justly acquired property. Yes, someone in Syria born today has those rights.

These are not your only rights, but all other rights are connected to these three. Essentially it is that you have the right to do as you please, so long as you don't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

Oh so cute and motherly. List the rights I was born with, one by one, specifically. For example:

1. Free ice cream every second Sunday.......
2 and on. Etc etc etc etc.........

All listed here:

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Those are man created, and totally artificial. I want the list of those which were created otherwise.

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #470 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 3:05pm

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:24pm:

Quote:

I don't make up any facts. The facts are clear. The very harsh penalties in NY don't act as much of a deterrent because there are still a lot of people arrested on gun charges and even more that carry guns against the law.

Let's take this full circle. Do you consider it rational to judge the effectiveness of a law by whether it achieves 100% reduction in the target crime? Please note that I am asking you about their effectiveness as a deterrent, not whether they infringe on your made-up universal human right to own a handgun, so you can skip the BS about that being how you judge it.

Quote:

But even if it were very effective I still wouldn't care

Yes, let's not let the facts get in the way of your bullshit spin eh? If you don't care whether they are effective, why do you keep insisting that they aren't? Do you feel it necessary to sacrifice the truth at every turn?

Quote:

What are you talking about?

Do try to keep up Lafayette. In attempting to define this universal human right, you started banging on about conventional and unconventional weapons, and said nukes etc were neither and therefor don't come under the right you are trying to define. So if their ar neither conventional nor unconventional, what are they?

Quote:

I was proclaiming it long before I came to the US and I'd be proclaiming it even if there weren't a US Constitution.

So can you define it without reference to the US constitution and military technology during that era? For extra points try to define it without defining nuclear and chemical weapons out of existence.

Lafayette if you don't care for the truth about whether gun laws are effective, why do you keep making up 'facts' about their effectiveness to justify your position? Are you just saying what you have been told to say?

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #471 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 3:14pm

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 3:05pm:

Lafayette if you don't care for the truth about whether gun laws are effective, why do you keep making up 'facts' about their effectiveness to justify your position? Are you just saying what you have been told to say?

Them not being effective is a side note. Ultimately even if banning guns ended in all crime altogether I'd still fight to keep them because their purpose is also to defend our liberty.

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #472 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 3:25pm

Quote:

Them not being effective is a side note.

You brought it up. Every American gun nut we have on here does, like clockwork. "Gun laws don't work because criminals will get one anyway" and 100 other permutations. In fact it took about 20 pages for you to admit you don't care about the truth and that it is really about rights. Gun nuts go to extraordinary lengths, and make themselves look like idiots in the process, to argue that gun laws are ineffective.

Of course, we have established that they are effective. But the truth does not matter to you right?

Quote:

Ultimately even if banning guns ended in all crime altogether I'd still fight to keep them because their purpose is also to defend our liberty.

Would you still lie about the effectiveness of gun laws then fall back on your justification that you don't care because it is about human rights anyway?

When are you going to explain what you mean by explosives, chemical weapons and dirty nukes being neither conventional nor unconventional weapons and therefor not subject to you odd ideas on human gun rights? If you have only just realised how idiotic this sounds, you should take it back, otherwise I will keep asking you about it.

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Bias_2012

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #473 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 3:46pm

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:55pm:

I suppose when i consider the word "natural" i'm inclined towards envisioning something that is part of the natural world. There are no "rights" accompanying nature, only instincts. We are not born with the "right " to eat for example. We eat at the sufferance of our parents. There are of course laws that surround that, that protect our "right" to be fed.

Perhaps that is just semantics. I do know what you are trying to say.

That's right, "of the natural world" ... now you're getting it

Rights are derived from those instincts you mentioned, not from laws. Laws protect natural rights (positive instincts)

Positive "instincts" are considered as liberty. Negative "instincts" harmful to others are outlawed, as you and I well know

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #474 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 4:48pm

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 3:25pm:

Quote:

Them not being effective is a side note.

You brought it up. Every American gun nut we have on here does, like clockwork. "Gun laws don't work because criminals will get one anyway" and 100 other permutations. In fact it took about 20 pages for you to admit you don't care about the truth and that it is really about rights. Gun nuts go to extraordinary lengths, and make themselves look like idiots in the process, to argue that gun laws are ineffective.

Of course, we have established that they are effective. But the truth does not matter to you right?

Quote:

Ultimately even if banning guns ended in all crime altogether I'd still fight to keep them because their purpose is also to defend our liberty.

Would you still lie about the effectiveness of gun laws then fall back on your justification that you don't care because it is about human rights anyway?

When are you going to explain what you mean by explosives, chemical weapons and dirty nukes being neither conventional nor unconventional weapons and therefor not subject to you odd ideas on human gun rights? If you have only just realised how idiotic this sounds, you should take it back, otherwise I will keep asking you about it.

1. Gun control laws are really only truly effective at preventing law abiding citizens from being able to defend themselves.
2. New York, Chicago and other states within the US, as well as Mexico and other nations prove that gun control in itself does not solve the problem and are thus ineffective.
3. I haven't lied. Chicago, New York and Mexico prove gun control is not very effective.
4. I never stated that high explosives shouldn't be accessible to the public. Chemical, Biological, Radiological and Nuclear weapons however would not be covered under the 2nd Amendment because they are neither conventional nor unconventional weapons that would be used to ensure the state remain free from tyranny.

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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #475 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 6:11pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 3:00pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:58pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:54pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:48pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:43pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:32pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Quote:

We are born with rights

Isn't it more accurate to say that we were born in a Country whose Laws bestow upon its citizens certain rights, responsibilities and obligations?

No, if a state has to legislate laws to give you something, it is not a right. You are born with rights and that is what makes them inalienable. The state can't remove them.

Just like if the state passed a law saying that all Jews must be killed. Does that mean that Jews no longer have the right to life? What about a law stating that all Africans must be enslaved, does that mean that Africans then lose their right to liberty?

That's the problem with Australians, they generally don't understand the concept of rights because they've never had to fight for them. Everything is a privilege to you guys.

List these rights I was born with please? And also tell me if someone born in (say) Syria today also has them.

The rights to life, liberty and justly acquired property. Yes, someone in Syria born today has those rights.

These are not your only rights, but all other rights are connected to these three. Essentially it is that you have the right to do as you please, so long as you don't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

Oh so cute and motherly. List the rights I was born with, one by one, specifically. For example:

1. Free ice cream every second Sunday.......
2 and on. Etc etc etc etc.........

All listed here:

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Those are man created, and totally artificial. I want the list of those which were created otherwise.

There are none otherwise created.

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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #476 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 6:12pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 3:46pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:55pm:

I suppose when i consider the word "natural" i'm inclined towards envisioning something that is part of the natural world. There are no "rights" accompanying nature, only instincts. We are not born with the "right " to eat for example. We eat at the sufferance of our parents. There are of course laws that surround that, that protect our "right" to be fed.

Perhaps that is just semantics. I do know what you are trying to say.

That's right, "of the natural world" ... now you're getting it

Rights are derived from those instincts you mentioned, not from laws. Laws protect natural rights (positive instincts)

Positive "instincts" are considered as liberty. Negative "instincts" harmful to others are outlawed, as you and I well know

I don't understand how that is in any way different to anything i have previously said.

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Bias_2012

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #477 - Dec 29^th, 2015 at 11:00am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:56pm:

Personally I'd say that most laws now infringe on rights and don't protect them.

I'd certainly agree with that

I've found a good explanation (below) about how it happens .... seems our governments are ignoring the "delicate" touch between freedom and security. In other words, increasing security in all facets of society eventually eliminates all freedoms in society ... an obvious statement but for the majority to understand it fully, they must first know and value liberty, especially if Australia ever becomes a republic

From a Best Answer in Yahoo 7 Answers ....

In any society in which liberty is valued, the balance between freedom and security is a delicate one.

Increasing one inevitably decreases the other. Weighting too far on the side liberty can result in anarchy and paradoxically less freedom. Weighting too far on the side of security results in tyranny and the complete loss of liberty. Freedom is a tight rope act in which every threat occasions the added danger of over correction.

https://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130608070432AAjTtY1

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Phemanderac

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #478 - Dec 29^th, 2015 at 11:08am

I blame apathy....

Overall, the majority of the population are just apathetic enough to let those with a born to rule mentality run with it...

Apathy.

They might turn up to vote, even in Australia where voting is compulsory, the might turn up - or just pay the fine... Apathy.

We have allowed the idea of democracy to be railroaded by our own apathy. If it's labelled representative democracy, then it is not democratic.

That puts a damn big hole in the concept of liberty for the masses. The problem with most discussions about liberty is that they're personal and do not consider the masses all that well.

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Bias_2012 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10766 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #479 - Dec 29^th, 2015 at 11:43am Get an education ... warning, some mild swearing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bICwyV5ppLU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC_wjQtfhZQ
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