Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Bias_2012 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10766 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #450 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:55pm Does a government have a right to impose military conscription, if so, what weapons should the conscripts be given ?
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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #451 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:56pm

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:48pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:46pm:

Rights are a human construct.

Explain how one is born with a human construct, and, even more importantly, how one is born with said human construct in place if they are born somewhere that either disagrees with or has not heard of that construct?

.

They are bestowed upon all humans by law.

That really is an absurd concept, even in Australia. I can point to many examples where it is quite obvious the rights you allege exist are just demonstrably theoretical/artificial.

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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #452 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:00pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:56pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:48pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:46pm:

Rights are a human construct.

Explain how one is born with a human construct, and, even more importantly, how one is born with said human construct in place if they are born somewhere that either disagrees with or has not heard of that construct?

.

They are bestowed upon all humans by law.

That really is an absurd concept, even in Australia. I can point to many examples where it is quite obvious the rights you allege exist are just demonstrably theoretical/artificial.

For the fourth time, then they are not being enforced. It doesn't mean they aren't there.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #453 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:21pm

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:00pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:56pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:48pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:46pm:

Rights are a human construct.

Explain how one is born with a human construct, and, even more importantly, how one is born with said human construct in place if they are born somewhere that either disagrees with or has not heard of that construct?

.

They are bestowed upon all humans by law.

That really is an absurd concept, even in Australia. I can point to many examples where it is quite obvious the rights you allege exist are just demonstrably theoretical/artificial.

For the fourth time, then they are not being enforced. It doesn't mean they aren't there.

Which, yet again, demonstrates the self contradiction.

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Bias_2012 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10766 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #454 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:23pm mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:48pm: They are bestowed upon all humans by law. Chicken Egg ? Could it be that laws are drafted up to protect our natural rights ? Personally I don't subscribe to your idea that laws give us rights, laws are there to penalize us if we don't obey them
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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #455 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:24pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:21pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:00pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:56pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:48pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:46pm:

Rights are a human construct.

Explain how one is born with a human construct, and, even more importantly, how one is born with said human construct in place if they are born somewhere that either disagrees with or has not heard of that construct?

.

They are bestowed upon all humans by law.

That really is an absurd concept, even in Australia. I can point to many examples where it is quite obvious the rights you allege exist are just demonstrably theoretical/artificial.

For the fourth time, then they are not being enforced. It doesn't mean they aren't there.

Which, yet again, demonstrates the self contradiction.

No Aussie. It represents a violation of rights. Rights which are still there and that we are all born with.

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #456 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:25pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:23pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:48pm:

They are bestowed upon all humans by law.

Chicken Egg ? Could it be that laws are drafted up to protect our natural rights ? Personally I don't subscribe to your idea that laws give us rights, laws are there to penalize us if we don't obey them

What natural rights Bias? And what do you mean by rights in that context?

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #457 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:28pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:15pm:

We have delusional yankers in Australia who proclaim themselves to be outside the Law. Doesn't get them anywhere.

That's the difference between law and rights. That's why I like Jefferson's definition of rightful liberty.
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

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Lafayette Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 316 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #458 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:29pm Phemanderac wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:16pm: Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:12pm: So if we aren't born with our rights, how do we get them? Inherited... Inherited from what? From who? If my father forfeits his rights does that mean that I can't inherit them as he's already forfeited them?
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Lafayette Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 316 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #459 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:30pm Fuzzball wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:16pm: Wrong, the English didn't think the colony was worth keeping (unfortunately for you), if it had, you'd be using correct grammar and spelling..... So much so that they reinvaded the US in the war of 1812 only to be beaten again, right?
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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #460 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:32pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Quote:

We are born with rights

Isn't it more accurate to say that we were born in a Country whose Laws bestow upon its citizens certain rights, responsibilities and obligations?

No, if a state has to legislate laws to give you something, it is not a right. You are born with rights and that is what makes them inalienable. The state can't remove them.

Just like if the state passed a law saying that all Jews must be killed. Does that mean that Jews no longer have the right to life? What about a law stating that all Africans must be enslaved, does that mean that Africans then lose their right to liberty?

That's the problem with Australians, they generally don't understand the concept of rights because they've never had to fight for them. Everything is a privilege to you guys.

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Lafayette Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 316 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #461 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:37pm An explanation on rights. http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1451277436/0#0
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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #462 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:43pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:32pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Quote:

We are born with rights

Isn't it more accurate to say that we were born in a Country whose Laws bestow upon its citizens certain rights, responsibilities and obligations?

No, if a state has to legislate laws to give you something, it is not a right. You are born with rights and that is what makes them inalienable. The state can't remove them.

Just like if the state passed a law saying that all Jews must be killed. Does that mean that Jews no longer have the right to life? What about a law stating that all Africans must be enslaved, does that mean that Africans then lose their right to liberty?

That's the problem with Australians, they generally don't understand the concept of rights because they've never had to fight for them. Everything is a privilege to you guys.

List these rights I was born with please? And also tell me if someone born in (say) Syria today also has them.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #463 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:48pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:43pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:32pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Quote:

We are born with rights

Isn't it more accurate to say that we were born in a Country whose Laws bestow upon its citizens certain rights, responsibilities and obligations?

No, if a state has to legislate laws to give you something, it is not a right. You are born with rights and that is what makes them inalienable. The state can't remove them.

Just like if the state passed a law saying that all Jews must be killed. Does that mean that Jews no longer have the right to life? What about a law stating that all Africans must be enslaved, does that mean that Africans then lose their right to liberty?

That's the problem with Australians, they generally don't understand the concept of rights because they've never had to fight for them. Everything is a privilege to you guys.

List these rights I was born with please? And also tell me if someone born in (say) Syria today also has them.

The rights to life, liberty and justly acquired property. Yes, someone in Syria born today has those rights.

These are not your only rights, but all other rights are connected to these three. Essentially it is that you have the right to do as you please, so long as you don't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

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Bias_2012

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #464 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:50pm

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:25pm:

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:23pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:48pm:

They are bestowed upon all humans by law.

Chicken Egg ? Could it be that laws are drafted up to protect our natural rights ? Personally I don't subscribe to your idea that laws give us rights, laws are there to penalize us if we don't obey them

What natural rights Bias? And what do you mean by rights in that context?

Why do you think laws are in place ? They're there to protect our natural rights. Everyone has the natural right to put food in their mouths and the natural right to live, as examples. Laws are there to punish those who would prevent us from doing so

Would you agree with that ?

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