Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #435 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:24pm

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I don't make up any facts. The facts are clear. The very harsh penalties in NY don't act as much of a deterrent because there are still a lot of people arrested on gun charges and even more that carry guns against the law.

Let's take this full circle. Do you consider it rational to judge the effectiveness of a law by whether it achieves 100% reduction in the target crime? Please note that I am asking you about their effectiveness as a deterrent, not whether they infringe on your made-up universal human right to own a handgun, so you can skip the BS about that being how you judge it.

Quote:

But even if it were very effective I still wouldn't care

Yes, let's not let the facts get in the way of your bullshit spin eh? If you don't care whether they are effective, why do you keep insisting that they aren't? Do you feel it necessary to sacrifice the truth at every turn?

Quote:

What are you talking about?

Do try to keep up Lafayette. In attempting to define this universal human right, you started banging on about conventional and unconventional weapons, and said nukes etc were neither and therefor don't come under the right you are trying to define. So if their ar neither conventional nor unconventional, what are they?

Quote:

I was proclaiming it long before I came to the US and I'd be proclaiming it even if there weren't a US Constitution.

So can you define it without reference to the US constitution and military technology during that era? For extra points try to define it without defining nuclear and chemical weapons out of existence.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #436 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:24pm

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:20pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Quote:

We are born with rights

Isn't it more accurate to say that we were born in a Country whose Laws bestow upon its citizens certain rights, responsibilities and obligations?

No. There are International human rights.

As i said, the more important question is whether those rights are enforced or compromised.

Really. Tell that to the kid just born in Syria.

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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #437 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:25pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:24pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:20pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Quote:

We are born with rights

Isn't it more accurate to say that we were born in a Country whose Laws bestow upon its citizens certain rights, responsibilities and obligations?

No. There are International human rights.

As i said, the more important question is whether those rights are enforced or compromised.

Really. Tell that to the kid just born in Syria.

As i said, twice, the more salient point is whether those rights are upheld or compromised.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39696 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #438 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:26pm What would that Syrian kid's rights be?
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mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 36383 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #439 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:26pm Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:26pm: What would that Syrian kid's rights be? http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/
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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39696 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #440 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:28pm mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:26pm: Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:26pm: What would that Syrian kid's rights be? http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/ Is Syria a signatory to that Convention? Even if it is, what about kids born in Countrys which are not signatories?
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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #441 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:35pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:28pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:26pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:26pm:

What would that Syrian kid's rights be?

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Is Syria a signatory to that Convention? Even if it is, what about kids born in Countrys which are not signatories?

It's not a Convention. It covers all humans, not signatories.

What is it you are having difficulty with Aussie? I have said thrice now that those rights may be compromised. I'm certain you don't need to to have explained to you how war would compromise those rights.

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Phemanderac

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #442 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:36pm

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:17pm:

We are born with rights.

No we are not.

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:17pm:

They are bestowed by law.

Therefore, we are not born with them. Like I said, we inherit them, ultimately from those who INVENTED the concept originally - or, more to the point, those who first enacted the concept.

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:17pm:

The more salient question is how and when is that law enforced or not.

Not a bad question, however, to my mind that very question is further proof that rights are not something that we are automatically born with. It's all a matter of luck whether or not the concept of rights is bestowed upon you or not.

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Melanias purse Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 101038	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #443 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:41pm We are born with rights, Phem. They may not make us immune to all misfortune, but the fact that we all refer to them when we’re stuck means that they exist. The right to a lawyer, a trial, a phone call, these are our rights. Whether we get a good lawyer and a good trial is another matter entirely.
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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #444 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:41pm

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:36pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:17pm:

We are born with rights.

No we are not.

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:17pm:

They are bestowed by law.

Therefore, we are not born with them. Like I said, we inherit them, ultimately from those who INVENTED the concept originally - or, more to the point, those who first enacted the concept.

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:17pm:

The more salient question is how and when is that law enforced or not.

Not a bad question, however, to my mind that very question is further proof that rights are not something that we are automatically born with. It's all a matter of luck whether or not the concept of rights is bestowed upon you or not.

Yes we are born with them. We even have certain rights whilst we are incubating.

As for luck as to whether rights are bestowed on you aor not, it's not a matter of whether or not they are bestowed, they are. It is all about whether they are protected or enforced. Whether or not those rights, which exist despite how despotic your land of birth, are able to be expressed.

The rights are still there though.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #445 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:45pm

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:35pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:28pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:26pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:26pm:

What would that Syrian kid's rights be?

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Is Syria a signatory to that Convention? Even if it is, what about kids born in Countrys which are not signatories?

It's not a Convention. It covers all humans, not signatories.

What is it you are having difficulty with Aussie? I have said thrice now that those rights may be compromised. I'm certain you don't need to to have explained to you how war would compromise those rights.

A universal, natural or inalienable right cannot be compromised. To suggest otherwise is self contradictory.

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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #446 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:46pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:45pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:35pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:28pm:

mothra wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:26pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:26pm:

What would that Syrian kid's rights be?

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Is Syria a signatory to that Convention? Even if it is, what about kids born in Countrys which are not signatories?

It's not a Convention. It covers all humans, not signatories.

What is it you are having difficulty with Aussie? I have said thrice now that those rights may be compromised. I'm certain you don't need to to have explained to you how war would compromise those rights.

A universal, natural or inalienable right cannot be compromised. To suggest otherwise is self contradictory.

Yes it can It's called a violation of rights.

That's what lawyers are for.

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Phemanderac

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #447 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:46pm

Rights are a human construct.

Explain how one is born with a human construct, and, even more importantly, how one is born with said human construct in place if they are born somewhere that either disagrees with or has not heard of that construct?

We are born with the basics to thrive, now, depending on a massive range of factors (some constructed, others natural) we either receive the opportunities (and recognise them as such) to thrive or we don't. If that's what you mean by the right's we are born with, then no worries, I can't argue with that.

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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #448 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:48pm

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:46pm:

Rights are a human construct.

Explain how one is born with a human construct, and, even more importantly, how one is born with said human construct in place if they are born somewhere that either disagrees with or has not heard of that construct?

.

They are bestowed upon all humans by law.

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mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 36383 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #449 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:49pm At least this conversation has got interesting at last. Enough about smacking guns.
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