Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #420 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 9:33am

Fuzzball wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 8:29am:

Stop knocking Britain you monkey spanker.

They may have gotten many of their ideas from British thinkers, amongst others. But certainly the Crown was very much opposed to the sentiments that those British scholars were inciting. That's why the US had a revolution and kicked the British out... TWICE..

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Lafayette Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 316 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #421 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 9:56am Fuzzball wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 8:29am: Stop knocking Britain you monkey spanker. If Britain hadn't infringed on the rights of Colonists then the Founding Fathers wouldn't have had to have pushed for independence and kicked their butts out of here not once, but twice.
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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #422 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 10:11am

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Yet it doesn't stop criminals that want firearms from obtaining firearms despite the fact that the sentences in NY are much harsher than they are in Australia. So why not?

Do you consider it rational to judge the effectiveness of a law by whether it achieves 100% reduction in the target crime?

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No, suitcase nukes and other WMD's are not in. They're neither conventional nor unconventional weapons.

So what are they? Imaginary weapons?

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Within the context of what the militia were armed with at that time, one could reasonably presume that they should have access to weapons available to a light infantry battalion or more specifically, a Ranger Battalion in today's standards.

This is how you define a universal human right? What a militia during the time the US constitution was written had access to? I thought you were spinning some BS about the right following naturally from our right to have two arms. Is this right universal and timeless, or does it depend on when the US constitution was written?

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So we're talking about man-portable (to bear) weapons systems that would be used in conventional and unconventional warfare.

But not imaginary ones?

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The difficult question is whether or not this would also include guided weapons systems or only unguided?

Yes, these are the questions we are faced with deciding what it a universal human right, thanks to NRA propaganda and the American constitution.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Bias_2012 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10766 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #423 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 10:57am freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 10:11am: Yes, these are the questions we are faced with deciding what it a universal human right, thanks to NRA propaganda and the American constitution. Does a nation, any nation, have a right to defend itself against an aggressor, if so what sort of weapons should they use ?
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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #424 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 12:39pm

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 10:11am:

Do you consider it rational to judge the effectiveness of a law by whether it achieves 100% reduction in the target crime?

No, I first judge whether or not the law infringes on rights. You are the one claiming the effectiveness in banning firearms and NY did that for a large number of firearms which are still used today in crimes, in fact, their penalties are much higher yet it still isn't that much of a deterrent.

So why deprive law abiding citizens the right to defend their lives when criminals don't give a f*ck about the laws?

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 10:11am:

So what are they? Imaginary weapons?

The Founding Fathers were not fools. They were highly intelligent and many were also inventors. They could foresee the advancements in technology which is the reason why they said arms, not muskets, cannons and pistols.

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 10:11am:

This is how you define a universal human right? What a militia during the time the US constitution was written had access to? I thought you were spinning some BS about the right following naturally from our right to have two arms. Is this right universal and timeless, or does it depend on when the US constitution was written?

I said the right to keep and bear arms, being a right has always been there. The US Constitution merely guarantees the right, it doesn't give you the right.

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 10:11am:

Yes, these are the questions we are faced with deciding what it a universal human right, thanks to NRA propaganda and the American constitution.

Yes, because we're not hoplophobes like you are. We already recognize the right to keep and bear arms and thus discuss what limits, if any are on it.

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #425 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:04pm

Quote:

No, I first judge whether or not the law infringes on rights. You are the one claiming the effectiveness in banning firearms and NY did that for a large number of firearms which are still used today in crimes, in fact, their penalties are much higher yet it still isn't that much of a deterrent.

How do you judge whether it is "much of a deterrent"? I asked you specifically about the effectiveness of the law. Are you saying you judge the effectiveness by your concept of human rights (the pursuit of handguns), and make up the facts to suit?

Quote:

The Founding Fathers were not fools.

So where did your concept of conventional, unconventional and imaginary weapons come from? You cannot even define this universal human right. You invent entirely arbitrary limitations on the right, based on the US constitution and the time it was written, then pretend these rights are universal and timeless.

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They could foresee the advancements in technology which is the reason why they said arms, not muskets, cannons and pistols.

They could forsee nuclear weapons, so they deliberately avoided restricting the rights they were inventing?

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I said the right to keep and bear arms, being a right has always been there. The US Constitution merely guarantees the right, it doesn't give you the right.

The funny thing is, this "universal" human right is largely confined to American gun nuts. If it wasn't for the US constitution, you would not be proclaiming it.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Phemanderac

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #426 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:07pm

Rights have not always been there. Rights are nothing more or less than a purely human construct that, like most things human, are manipulations to give us (humans) an advantage.

The harsh reality of Rights is they were initially conjured up in order to,

Protect the weak from the strong.

Protect the meek from the aggressive.

Protect the poor (and or otherwise disadvantaged) from the predatory avarice of others.

and to protect the concept that all men (that should read people, just by the way) are created equal - cause that was part of the whole inalienable human rights speech...

Nice idea, but greed and avarice are two particularly virtues that will always undermine, ridicule and/or destroy any idea of equity - and, therefore, justice, freedom and liberty...

Ironically, guns won't fix these problems.

Pretending that rights are a part of the natural order of things also will neither fix the problems or, for that matter, improve, protect or enhance any concept of liberty you might have. Now, if we as a species were mature, genuinely honest, reasonable and humane (how ironic) then rights would be universal to ALL species, even those we will continue to hunt/kill for food.

Rights also come with some responsibility attached to them. Now that is a concept that, to my mind, is generally avoided with the glaring exception of when a member of the less liberated sections of our various communities endeavour to obtain, access of act on one of their rights...

Fix problems around access to food, medicine, clean water, education and the rights of other species - then we might be almost ready as a species to seriously discuss liberty with any degree of meaningfulness.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #427 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:12pm

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:04pm:

How do you judge whether it is "much of a deterrent"? I asked you specifically about the effectiveness of the law. Are you saying you judge the effectiveness by your concept of human rights (the pursuit of handguns), and make up the facts to suit?

I don't make up any facts. The facts are clear. The very harsh penalties in NY don't act as much of a deterrent because there are still a lot of people arrested on gun charges and even more that carry guns against the law.

But even if it were very effective I still wouldn't care because it infringes on the rights of law abiding citizens.

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:04pm:

So where did your concept of conventional, unconventional and imaginary weapons come from? You cannot even define this universal human right.

What are you talking about?

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:04pm:

They could forsee nuclear weapons, so they deliberately avoided restricting the rights they were inventing?

They could foresee advancements in the weapons technology used in light infantry.

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:04pm:

The funny thing is, this "universal" human right is largely confined to American gun nuts. If it wasn't for the US constitution, you would not be proclaiming it.

I was proclaiming it long before I came to the US and I'd be proclaiming it even if there weren't a US Constitution.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #428 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:12pm

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:07pm:

Rights have not always been there. Rights are nothing more or less than a purely human construct that, like most things human, are manipulations to give us (humans) an advantage.

The harsh reality of Rights is they were initially conjured up in order to,

Protect the weak from the strong.

Protect the meek from the aggressive.

Protect the poor (and or otherwise disadvantaged) from the predatory avarice of others.

and to protect the concept that all men (that should read people, just by the way) are created equal - cause that was part of the whole inalienable human rights speech...

Nice idea, but greed and avarice are two particularly virtues that will always undermine, ridicule and/or destroy any idea of equity - and, therefore, justice, freedom and liberty...

Ironically, guns won't fix these problems.

Pretending that rights are a part of the natural order of things also will neither fix the problems or, for that matter, improve, protect or enhance any concept of liberty you might have. Now, if we as a species were mature, genuinely honest, reasonable and humane (how ironic) then rights would be universal to ALL species, even those we will continue to hunt/kill for food.

Rights also come with some responsibility attached to them. Now that is a concept that, to my mind, is generally avoided with the glaring exception of when a member of the less liberated sections of our various communities endeavour to obtain, access of act on one of their rights...

Fix problems around access to food, medicine, clean water, education and the rights of other species - then we might be almost ready as a species to seriously discuss liberty with any degree of meaningfulness.

So if we aren't born with our rights, how do we get them?

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39693 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #429 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:15pm Quote: I was proclaiming it long before I came to the US and I'd be proclaiming it even if there weren't a US Constitution. We have delusional yankers in Australia who proclaim themselves to be outside the Law. Doesn't get them anywhere.
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Fuzzball

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #430 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:16pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 9:56am:

Fuzzball wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 8:29am:

Stop knocking Britain you monkey spanker.

If Britain hadn't infringed on the rights of Colonists then the Founding Fathers wouldn't have had to have pushed for independence and kicked their butts out of here not once, but twice.

Wrong, the English didn't think the colony was worth keeping (unfortunately for you), if it had, you'd be using correct grammar and spelling..... Grin

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Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #431 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:16pm Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:12pm: So if we aren't born with our rights, how do we get them? Inherited...
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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #432 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:17pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:12pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:07pm:

Rights have not always been there. Rights are nothing more or less than a purely human construct that, like most things human, are manipulations to give us (humans) an advantage.

The harsh reality of Rights is they were initially conjured up in order to,

Protect the weak from the strong.

Protect the meek from the aggressive.

Protect the poor (and or otherwise disadvantaged) from the predatory avarice of others.

and to protect the concept that all men (that should read people, just by the way) are created equal - cause that was part of the whole inalienable human rights speech...

Nice idea, but greed and avarice are two particularly virtues that will always undermine, ridicule and/or destroy any idea of equity - and, therefore, justice, freedom and liberty...

Ironically, guns won't fix these problems.

Pretending that rights are a part of the natural order of things also will neither fix the problems or, for that matter, improve, protect or enhance any concept of liberty you might have. Now, if we as a species were mature, genuinely honest, reasonable and humane (how ironic) then rights would be universal to ALL species, even those we will continue to hunt/kill for food.

Rights also come with some responsibility attached to them. Now that is a concept that, to my mind, is generally avoided with the glaring exception of when a member of the less liberated sections of our various communities endeavour to obtain, access of act on one of their rights...

Fix problems around access to food, medicine, clean water, education and the rights of other species - then we might be almost ready as a species to seriously discuss liberty with any degree of meaningfulness.

So if we aren't born with our rights, how do we get them?

We are born with rights. They are bestowed by law.

The more salient question is how and when is that law enforced or not.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39693 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #433 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:19pm Quote: We are born with rights Isn't it more accurate to say that we were born in a Country whose Laws bestow upon its citizens certain rights, responsibilities and obligations?
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mothra

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #434 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:20pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 1:19pm:

Quote:

We are born with rights

Isn't it more accurate to say that we were born in a Country whose Laws bestow upon its citizens certain rights, responsibilities and obligations?

No. There are International human rights.

As i said, the more important question is whether those rights are enforced or compromised.

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