Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Baronvonrort

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #405 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:23pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:19pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:17pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:11pm:

Yeas, I do.

Link.

Nothing in there about kids being routinely massacred in schools, there were only one or 2 schools mentioned.

It also claims no laws were enacted after Sandy Hook which is bullshit, do a check on Connecticut gun laws to debunk that bullshit.

Schools are gun free zones, all the Israeli teachers are armed they don't have school shootings anymore

Thank goodness there were only 'one or two.'

We had a mass shooting at Monash university despite our gun laws.

Ruger's share price has gone up 70% since Obama was elected,Smith and Wesson are doing really good as well.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39695 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #406 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:23pm Quote: all the Israeli teachers are armed they don't have school shootings anymore Links to before and after ('what' I have not idea?)
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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #407 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:28pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:23pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:19pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:17pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:11pm:

Yeas, I do.

Link.

Nothing in there about kids being routinely massacred in schools, there were only one or 2 schools mentioned.

It also claims no laws were enacted after Sandy Hook which is bullshit, do a check on Connecticut gun laws to debunk that bullshit.

Schools are gun free zones, all the Israeli teachers are armed they don't have school shootings anymore

Thank goodness there were only 'one or two.'

We had a mass shooting at Monash university despite our gun laws.

Ruger's share price has gone up 70% since Obama was elected,Smith and Wesson are doing really good as well.

Indeed, and the Chinese insane prick was

fully licenced

to have the weapons.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #408 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:20am

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:22pm:

Really? So upon century after century going back in excess of 2000 years, it was only until 1776 when a bunch of successful (and verbose, overly gushing it has to be said) colonial rebels, full of their own victorious importance and ego managed to actually express this rubbish right, and even then in a post War self serving environment.

Garbage. This alleged 'natural' or 'inalienable' right is man made crap of the most obvious artificial, back patting kind.

No, Englishmen and Colonists, for the most part had this right recognized for quite some time starting at the latest in 1689 with the English Bill of Rights. But many other nations were generally armed.

The biggest threat the British posed in the revolution, which caused the Founding Fathers to codify the right to keep and bear arms is the British confiscation of firearms, ball and powder during the war.

The Founding Fathers recognized that the last line of defence against tyranny was the ability to keep and bear arms.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #409 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:27am

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:52pm:

1. The only people whose intent is to get their hands on guns are gun nuts. Everyone else sees them as a means to an end and will be influenced by how difficult it is to obtain them and how risky it is to hold onto them.

2. One more time. Do guns laws have an impact on gun usage by criminals?

I added the numbers for expediency.
1. Depends on what the criminal will need it for.
2. Sure, some criminals may feel that a disarmed citizenry is easier pickings and they can achieve their objectives with a knife, pipe, syringe etc and not invest the money in a firearm or risk extra jail time. Just like criminals here do the same thing when doing a risk assessment before committing a crime.

Other criminals however will see the value in a firearm for the type of crime they intend to commit.

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:52pm:

Did this right exist before guns existed?

Did it exist before the American constitution?

Why is it that only some Americans see it as a human right?

The right to keep and bear arms has existed for as long as there have been people and arms, for whatever arms were available at the time.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #410 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:32am

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:28pm:

Indeed, and the Chinese insane prick was

fully licenced

to have the weapons.

If the main factor contributing to school shootings and other massacres was guns then why is it that other heavily armed nations like Switzerland don't have anywhere near as many massacres, especially when the majority of adult males are actually armed with real fully automatic assault rifles, given to them by the state?

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #411 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 7:30am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:27am:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:52pm:

1. The only people whose intent is to get their hands on guns are gun nuts. Everyone else sees them as a means to an end and will be influenced by how difficult it is to obtain them and how risky it is to hold onto them.

2. One more time. Do guns laws have an impact on gun usage by criminals?

I added the numbers for expediency.
1. Depends on what the criminal will need it for.
2. Sure, some criminals may feel that a disarmed citizenry is easier pickings and they can achieve their objectives with a knife, pipe, syringe etc and not invest the money in a firearm or risk extra jail time. Just like criminals here do the same thing when doing a risk assessment before committing a crime.

Other criminals however will see the value in a firearm for the type of crime they intend to commit.

It is not just the risk of having and using one Lafayette. Guns also become more expensive and more complicated to acquire with stricter laws and higher punishments. Contrary to your NRA propaganda, most criminals are lazy, poor idiots.

Quote:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:52pm:

Did this right exist before guns existed?

Did it exist before the American constitution?

Why is it that only some Americans see it as a human right?

The right to keep and bear arms has existed for as long as there have been people and arms, for whatever arms were available at the time.

So the right to own a handgun comes naturally from the right to have two arms?

What is the fundamental difference between the right to own a handgun and the right to own a nuclear bomb?

It seems to me that you are no different from those who rationally call for firearm restrictions. You just draw the line in a slightly different place, and wrap your opinions in a cloak of rights and freedoms.

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Phemanderac

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #412 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 7:36am

It seems that true liberty also is dependent on things like ample access to medical care, housing, food and clean water...

Hard to say I suppose, but these things seem far more important to ones liberty than gun ownership - yet, the entire argument seems to be about gun ownership...

No real interest in liberty is there!

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Fuzzball

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #413 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 7:59am

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:22pm:

the good ole boys wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:19pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:18pm:

the good ole boys wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 11:14pm:

Aussies definition of liberty is dobbing a poster in to the mods when he doesn't like an opinion.

Nope, never.

Why do I always see you name on the whinge page?

Aussie is a bit of a dobber, was being a dobber ever really associated with Aussie culture or frowned upon.

taxi drivers like to think they are important impotant.

Fixed it for ya.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #414 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 8:02am

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 7:30am:

It is not just the risk of having and using one Lafayette. Guns also become more expensive and more complicated to acquire with stricter laws and higher punishments. Contrary to your NRA propaganda, most criminals are lazy, poor idiots.

The punishment for illegally possessing a firearm in the 1st degree in NY is up to 25 years in prison, it also means that you are a slave according to the law whilst you are in prison and when you come out you lose your civil rights. This in comparison to most states in Australia where the maximum prison sentence is about 5-8 years in what can be considered luxury in comparison to doing 25 in Rikers Island prison. Do you think that stops criminals from owning or obtaining firearms?

Sure, some criminals won't be likely to possess firearms but that doesn't mean all won't.

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 7:30am:

So the right to own a handgun comes naturally from the right to have two arms?

That's obviously not what they meant by arms.

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 7:30am:

What is the fundamental difference between the right to own a handgun and the right to own a nuclear bomb?

One is a light infantry weapon that can be used in conventional and unconventional warfare, to some degree discriminately whereas the other cannot be used in either conventional nor unconventional warfare and whose targets are indiscriminate on a massive scale.

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 7:30am:

It seems to me that you are no different from those who rationally call for firearm restrictions. You just draw the line in a slightly different place, and wrap your opinions in a cloak of rights and freedoms.

What limits have I suggested for owning arms?

- Simple, Those that you can keep and bear (ie carry)
- Used in conventional and unconventional warfare
- Used by light infantry

Those are the only limits that I could foresee as being constitutionally acceptable.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #415 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 8:03am

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 7:36am:

It seems that true liberty also is dependent on things like ample access to medical care, housing, food and clean water...

Hard to say I suppose, but these things seem far more important to ones liberty than gun ownership - yet, the entire argument seems to be about gun ownership...

No real interest in liberty is there!

I didn't make this argument about gun ownership. I'm happy to discuss other aspects of liberty but people seem fixated on firearms because they are hoplophobic.

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Phemanderac

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #416 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 8:10am

After 28 pages almost exclusively dedicated to guns, one would think if that is not the subject for debate then the subject may have changed, just saying...

Now, as to the criteria I mention, on that basis, there are not too many places where liberty is actively asserted, maintained, respected, facilitated or embraced by the locals...

It hardly matters how a bunch of first worlders ultimately define liberty really.

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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #417 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 8:18am

Quote:

The punishment for illegally possessing a firearm in the 1st degree in NY is up to 25 years in prison, it also means that you are a slave according to the law whilst you are in prison and when you come out you lose your civil rights. This in comparison to most states in Australia where the maximum prison sentence is about 5-8 years in what can be considered luxury in comparison to doing 25 in Rikers Island prison. Do you think that stops criminals from owning or obtaining firearms?

I expect it would have a big impact, in both countries. Do you? By the way, is this what you mean by Americans respecting liberty more than Australians? Or do you just mean their tendency to derail an otherwise rational debate with chest beating about the universal human rights revealed in their constitution?

Quote:

That's obviously not what they meant by arms.

Of course not. Nuclear weapons did not exist back then. But they did have bombs and cannons capable of indiscriminate killing.

Quote:

One is a light infantry weapon that can be used in conventional and unconventional warfare, to some degree discriminately whereas the other cannot be used in either conventional nor unconventional warfare and whose targets are indiscriminate on a massive scale.

Do you recognise the absurdity in needing to put language like this into a statement of universal human rights?

If nuclear weapons cannot be used in conventional or unconventional warfare, does that mean it is not actually possible to use them?

Quote:

Simple, Those that you can keep and bear (ie carry)

So, a suitcase full of chemical weapons, explosives or a dirty nuke is in, but the larger artillery used in the time the US constitutionw as written are out?

Quote:

I didn't make this argument about gun ownership. I'm happy to discuss other aspects of liberty but people seem fixated on firearms because they are hoplophobic.

I would say because they are not idiots and do not need a piece of paper from a few hundred years ago to tell them what universal human rights are.

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Fuzzball

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #418 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 8:29am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 2:20am:

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:22pm:

Really? So upon century after century going back in excess of 2000 years, it was only until 1776 when a bunch of successful (and verbose, overly gushing it has to be said) colonial rebels, full of their own victorious importance and ego managed to actually express this rubbish right, and even then in a post War self serving environment.

Garbage. This alleged 'natural' or 'inalienable' right is man made crap of the most obvious artificial, back patting kind.

No, Englishmen and Colonists, for the most part had this right recognized for quite some time starting at the latest in 1689 with the English Bill of Rights. But many other nations were generally armed.

The biggest threat the British posed in the revolution, which caused the Founding Fathers to codify the right to keep and bear arms is the British confiscation of firearms, ball and powder during the war.

The Founding Fathers (Wonder where they came from - oh yes that would be England/Britain) recognized that the last line of defence against tyranny was the ability to keep and bear arms.

Stop knocking Britain you monkey spanker.

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Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting,
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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #419 - Dec 28^th, 2015 at 9:30am

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 8:18am:

I expect it would have a big impact, in both countries. Do you? By the way, is this what you mean by Americans respecting liberty more than Australians? Or do you just mean their tendency to derail an otherwise rational debate with chest beating about the universal human rights revealed in their constitution?

Yet it doesn't stop criminals that want firearms from obtaining firearms despite the fact that the sentences in NY are much harsher than they are in Australia. So why not?

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 8:18am:

Of course not. Nuclear weapons did not exist back then. But they did have bombs and cannons capable of indiscriminate killing.

Do you recognise the absurdity in needing to put language like this into a statement of universal human rights?

If nuclear weapons cannot be used in conventional or unconventional warfare, does that mean it is not actually possible to use them?

So, a suitcase full of chemical weapons, explosives or a dirty nuke is in, but the larger artillery used in the time the US constitutionw as written are out?

No, suitcase nukes and other WMD's are not in. They're neither conventional nor unconventional weapons.

Within the context of what the militia were armed with at that time, one could reasonably presume that they should have access to weapons available to a light infantry battalion or more specifically, a Ranger Battalion in today's standards.

So we're talking about man-portable (to bear) weapons systems that would be used in conventional and unconventional warfare.

The difficult question is whether or not this would also include guided weapons systems or only unguided?

freediver wrote on Dec 28^th, 2015 at 8:18am:

I would say because they are not idiots and do not need a piece of paper from a few hundred years ago to tell them what universal human rights are.

You're living in a country that puts you in prison for I think 10 years for owning a document produced by Al-Qaeda.. How free are you, really?

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