Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #30 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:29pm

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river t a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

It comes down to whether or not the property was justly acquired or not. Whoever has it first owns it. Particularly if they've worked the land.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #31 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:32pm

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river t a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

It comes down to whether or not the property was justly acquired or not. Whoever has it first owns it. Particularly if they've worked the land.

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Lafayette Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 316 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #32 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:33pm Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:26pm: That is a given, and in that very process, established rules which are anathema to 'liberty.' No, they are not anathema to liberty at all. Liberty and Anarchy are not the same thing.
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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #33 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:36pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:33pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:26pm:

That is a given, and in that very process, established rules which are anathema to 'liberty.'

No, they are not anathema to liberty at all. Liberty and Anarchy are not the same thing.

That's precisely why there is no such thing as liberty. It does not exist anywhere.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #34 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:51pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:36pm:

That's precisely why there is no such thing as liberty. It does not exist anywhere.

Untrue, I gave you a perfect example of rightful liberty, that is what limitations should we be subjected to and the limitations show that a government shouldn't prevent us from doing anything unless it infringes on the equal rights of others.

Other factors like environment etc are irrelevant. To suggest that we could never truly be free because of gravity as some means to detract from tangible liberty that can be achieved through adhering to the principle of rightful liberty is preposterous and asinine.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #35 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:55pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:51pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:36pm:

That's precisely why there is no such thing as liberty. It does not exist anywhere.

Untrue, I gave you a perfect example of rightful liberty, that is what limitations should we be subjected to and the limitations show that a government shouldn't prevent us from doing anything unless it infringes on the equal rights of others.

Other factors like environment etc are irrelevant. To suggest that we could never truly be free because of gravity as some means to detract from tangible liberty that can be achieved through adhering to the principle of rightful liberty is preposterous and asinine.

Ya see those two words. They are qualifiers or conditions, and as soon as they exist...............out goes liberty.

You really ought to be discussing the limits of conditions which will

acceptably

impose on some lofty utopian notion called liberty.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #36 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:00pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:55pm:

Ya see those two words. They are qualifiers or conditions, and as soon as they exist...............out goes liberty.

You really ought to be discussing the limits of conditions which will

acceptably

impose on some lofty utopian notion called liberty.

So go back to the question that I asked at the beginning. Did I not ask what rightful liberty is?

I didn't ask what philosophical and unattainable liberty is, so perhaps actually make a contribution based on that.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #37 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:06pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:00pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:55pm:

Ya see those two words. They are qualifiers or conditions, and as soon as they exist...............out goes liberty.

You really ought to be discussing the limits of conditions which will

acceptably

impose on some lofty utopian notion called liberty.

So go back to the question that I asked at the beginning. Did I not ask what rightful liberty is?

I didn't ask what philosophical and unattainable liberty is, so perhaps actually make a contribution based on that.

Your thread title suggests otherwise. It is.......How do you define liberty?

Rightful liberty.....................I guess that drills down and distills to whatever set of circumstances you are willing to accept in your life. No need for fancy esoteric pseudo-intellectual garbage. It is as simple as that in the real world.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #38 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:16pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:06pm:

Your thread title suggests otherwise. It is.......How do you define liberty?

So you're telling me that you only read the title of the thread and responded based on that without actually reading what was said in it?

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:06pm:

Rightful liberty.....................I guess that drills down and distills to whatever set of circumstances you are willing to accept in your life. No need for fancy esoteric pseudo-intellectual garbage. It is as simple as that in the real world.

I think Jefferson's was pretty clear. Basically, you, as a free adult, should be able to do whatever you want so long as what you do doesn't infringe on the equal rights of others.

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #39 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:24pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:36pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:33pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:26pm:

That is a given, and in that very process, established rules which are anathema to 'liberty.'

No, they are not anathema to liberty at all. Liberty and Anarchy are not the same thing.

That's precisely why there is no such thing as liberty. It does not exist anywhere.

Liberty is a concept Aussie. It's not like Africa.

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:55pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:51pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:36pm:

That's precisely why there is no such thing as liberty. It does not exist anywhere.

Untrue, I gave you a perfect example of rightful liberty, that is what limitations should we be subjected to and the limitations show that a government shouldn't prevent us from doing anything unless it infringes on the equal rights of others.

Other factors like environment etc are irrelevant. To suggest that we could never truly be free because of gravity as some means to detract from tangible liberty that can be achieved through adhering to the principle of rightful liberty is preposterous and asinine.

Ya see those two words. They are qualifiers or conditions, and as soon as they exist...............out goes liberty.

You really ought to be discussing the limits of conditions which will

acceptably

impose on some lofty utopian notion called liberty.

Are you referring to 'preposterous' and 'asinine'?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39694 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #40 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:27pm Nah....I'll leave that stuff to you. You are pretty good at it.
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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #41 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:29pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:16pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:06pm:

Your thread title suggests otherwise. It is.......How do you define liberty?

So you're telling me that you only read the title of the thread and responded based on that without actually reading what was said in it?

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:06pm:

Rightful liberty.....................I guess that drills down and distills to whatever set of circumstances you are willing to accept in your life. No need for fancy esoteric pseudo-intellectual garbage. It is as simple as that in the real world.

I think Jefferson's was pretty clear. Basically, you, as a free adult, should be able to do whatever you want so long as what you do doesn't infringe on the equal rights of others.

Gee, how original. Something like live and let live, or is it more complicated according to what course you are doing at Uni?

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #42 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:29pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:20pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:01pm:

Only if you obtain it unlawfully.

lol you're a card maria, trying to incriminate me ? when you've got a large tank holding more H2o than I ever need per month and usually much longer than that, you'll get it for free too

It probably costs more than most people pay for town water.

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:19pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:14pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 11:51am:

I concur with this definition. You, as an adult, should be able to do whatever you wish, so long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river at a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

It is a principle, not a rule. So long as you both have equal legal access, the principle holds.

Quote:

The point is more that freedom and liberty are large part illusion, no matter if the government has regulations or not. Factors that cannot be controlled drive so much of where you will end up, what you will become and how your life will unfold that it often renders the choices that you can predict meaningless.

You are confusing liberty with power. It does not mean having everything you want, or the absence of natural limits.

It's just a cloak for reality, though. What's the benefit a principle that does nothing?

You don't see any benefits to being free, unless it "does something" to you? You still have to do things for yourself. It's a concept, not a dishwasher.

Quote:

Gee, how original. Something like live and let live, or is it more complicated according to what course you are doing at Uni?

That's a reasonable way to define it Aussie. Now tell me, does "live and let live" exist?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #43 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:38pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:29pm:

Gee, how original. Something like live and let live, or is it more complicated according to what course you are doing at Uni?

I'm 30 years old and have been out of uni for quite some time.

Being dismissive doesn't help your case given the fact that the quote that I posted was from one of the greatest thinkers of the last 500 years. He was incredibly educated.

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #44 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:42pm

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:07pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:04pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 11:51am:

I concur with this definition. You, as an adult, should be able to do whatever you wish, so long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river at a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

If you are looking for a definition of liberty you will never get one that codifies ever conceivable interaction among men. The definition itself assumes people with a genuine desire for liberty and a respect for the rights of others which would solve all such issues amicable and reasonably.

The failure of freedom everywhere is that such people are not the majority - hence judicial systems, police and often... conflict.

The point is more that freedom and liberty are large part illusion, no matter if the government has regulations or not. Factors that cannot be controlled drive so much of where you will end up, what you will become and how your life will unfold that it often renders the choices that you can predict meaningless.

I disagree, but largely because I probably define freedom and liberty differently to you. It certainly does not mean I am free to do as I wish. Yes, there are factors and very powerful ones that drive a large part of my life and even destination, but that does not mean I am not free as that would assume it is in any way different for anyone else. Once again, my freedom isnt a licence to be what I want to be and to do what I want to do. It is rather no more complex than the absence of tyranny and unconscionable limits on my liberty. My life is mine to MAKE, not assume.

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