Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Lafayette Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 316 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #375 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 7:44pm Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 7:26pm: That's really good news. You win. Guns for everyone. Even if it were an assault rifle that was used. I still wouldn't believe that firearms should be illegal. In fact, I believe that the right to keep and bear arms includes the right to own assault rifles and machine guns.
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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #376 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 7:55pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 7:44pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 7:26pm:

That's really good news. You win. Guns for everyone.

Even if it were an assault rifle that was used. I still wouldn't believe that firearms should be illegal. In fact, I believe that the right to keep and bear arms includes the right to own assault rifles and machine guns.

Yeas, we know. It clearly makes the kids at school much safer in that Land of Liberty.

Gunships for all!

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #377 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 8:58pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 6:54pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 6:50pm:

Are you trying to say that our gun laws are effective in reducing the number of junkies using guns to hold up stores? Sorry for being pedantic about this, but you keep giving the impression you understand this point, then spewing the same idiotic NRA propaganda about them having no impact.

I don't know, what were the statistics of junkies using firearms to commit armed robberies on stores before they were banned? How many junkies currently use legally purchased firearms to commit armed robberies now? I'd imagine the numbers were and still are very low given the unsophisticated nature of junkies and the crimes they commit.

All I know however is if a junkie tried to hold me up with even a knife, I'd be relieved to know that I'm armed with my Glock 19 because I'll use it to defend myself.

Suddenly you are unsure of yourself? If this is about nothing more than your right to fantasise about coming to the rescue with your little handgun, why bother pretending to know what the repurcussions are?

Do you care whether gun laws reduce gun crime and gun deaths? Or is the truth just one more thing you will sacrifice for your right to bear arms?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #378 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:29pm

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 8:58pm:

Suddenly you are unsure of yourself? If this is about nothing more than your right to fantasise about coming to the rescue with your little handgun, why bother pretending to know what the repurcussions are?

Do you care whether gun laws reduce gun crime and gun deaths? Or is the truth just one more thing you will sacrifice for your right to bear arms?

I'm not the one here implying that junkies used guns to commit armed robbery before guns were banned in any significant number higher than they currently use them now in Australia. So I don't have the numbers. Do you? If not, then you are implying something without evidence.

Source: http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/homicide/weapon.html
In fact, the statistics show that there isn't really that great a difference in the murder rates from 1991-20012 even though semi automatic rifles and pump action shotguns were made illegal.

Sure, there may be less homicides involving guns per year but the difference, in the grand scheme of things is 5-10 murders a year less without as many firearms than there were with firearms.

So do I feel that 5-10 murders per year is worth infringing everyone's right to keep and bear arms? Hell no. But it could be 500-1000 or 5000-10000 and I'd give you the same answer.

I don't care whether the gun laws reduce crime or gun deaths because ultimately the right to keep and bear arms is exactly that, a right and as a right and therefore, inalienable.

It looks like more people were killed by knives even before guns were banned in Australia and that remains the case. Will you be campaigning to make knives illegal now?

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39695 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #379 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:35pm Quote: I don't care whether the gun laws reduce crime or gun deaths because ultimately the right to keep and bear arms is exactly that, a right and as a right and therefore, inalienable. Exactly, and we will now do the NRA merry-go-round on what inalienable means. You first Yanker.
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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #380 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:37pm

Quote:

So do I feel that 5-10 murders per year is worth infringing everyone's right to keep and bear arms?

Are you admitting you were wrong to claim that it had no impact?

Are you going to regurgitate the same NRA lie without even thinking about it on the next forum you inflict yourself on?

Quote:

I don't care whether the gun laws reduce crime or gun deaths

At least now you are being honest.

Quote:

because ultimately the right to keep and bear arms is exactly that, a right and as a right and therefore, inalienable

Would you be saying this if it wasn't written into the US constitution? Is this a universal right, or is it only inalienable for Americans?

Life, liberty, and the pursuit of handguns.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #381 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:51pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:35pm:

Exactly, and we will now do the NRA merry-go-round on what inalienable means. You first Yanker.

Inalienable/Unalienable means very simply that you cannot be alienated/separated from them, nor can they be transferred, whether by legislation or force.

You can, however, forfeit your own rights voluntarily or through a very heinous act such as murder ie you forfeit at that stage your right to liberty and even life, if the death penalty applies. That is, of course after you've been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law.

But you may not forfeit another individual's rights.

They are also known as natural rights.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #382 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:54pm

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:37pm:

Are you admitting you were wrong to claim that it had no impact?

It has no impact on people that are resourceful and intent enough on obtaining firearms.

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:37pm:

Would you be saying this if it wasn't written into the US constitution? Is this a universal right, or is it only inalienable for Americans?

I was saying that when I was living in Australia too, long before I came here. It is absolutely a universal right. Not only for Americans. That is what rights are. Inalienable, equal and universal.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #383 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:55pm

No doubt FD will pick up on your 'natural' right thing, and I'll stick to this horseshit.

Quote:

Inalienable/Unalienable means very simply that you cannot be alienated/separated from them, nor can they be transferred, whether by legislation or force.

So......it seems you agree, this right is not 'God' given, yeas?

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #384 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:59pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:55pm:

So......it seems you agree, this right is not 'God' given, yeas?

That depends on whether or not you believe in God. A person that believes in God may believe that the Creator endows us all with our rights.

Someone that doesn't believe in a creator or god will say that it isn't God, but it is just because we are born with these rights simply by virtue of being human.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #385 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:07pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:59pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:55pm:

So......it seems you agree, this right is not 'God' given, yeas?

That depends on whether or not you believe in God. A person that believes in God may believe that the Creator endows us all with our rights.

Someone that doesn't believe in a creator or god will say that it isn't God, but it is just because we are born with these rights simply by virtue of being human.

I'm not here to debate ghosts. Pick your poison.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #386 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:12pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:07pm:

I'm not here to debate ghosts. Pick your poison.

I believe that God created mankind and so I believe that we were endowed with our rights by our Creator.

People who don't believe we were created we are just born with them. Either way, believing in God or not is irrelevant to having rights as both believe that we are born with them.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #387 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:22pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:12pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:07pm:

I'm not here to debate ghosts. Pick your poison.

I believe that God created mankind and so I believe that we were endowed with our rights by our Creator.

People who don't believe we were created we are just born with them. Either way, believing in God or not is irrelevant to having rights as both believe that we are born with them.

Really? So upon century after century going back in excess of 2000 years, it was only until 1776 when a bunch of successful (and verbose, overly gushing it has to be said) colonial rebels, full of their own victorious importance and ego managed to actually express this rubbish right, and even then in a post War self serving environment.

Garbage. This alleged 'natural' or 'inalienable' right is man made crap of the most obvious artificial, back patting kind.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #388 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:35pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 6:31pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 6:27pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 6:21pm:

Me, and every link I can find. Your point, at best, is that I called a pop gun an assault rifle, yeas? The former does not get to be used to slaughter kids at Sandy Hook and the latter does. Is that it?

http://www.ruger.com/products/mini14RanchRifle/images/5801.jpg
Is this also an Assault Rifle?

Not in my mind. It has a very limited magazine capacity and if I have ID it correctly was the US carbine used in WW2. Still, well and truly capable of slaughtering the Land of Liberty kids at Sandy Hook. Your point is?

You can buy 30 round magazines for them Arsie just like Ar15, they even sell 100 round drum magazines for the mini 14, is that the very limited magazine capacity you are talking about through your ass like a typical hoplophobe?

The USA military has never used the mini 14 for anything.

The mini 14 uses the exact same ammo as the AR15 -M4.

How is an assault rifle more deadly than a mini 14?

With Sandy Hook did Lanza kill his mother and steal her guns before going on a rampage, how many crimes had he done before he left the house with his mother's gun?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39695 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #389 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 10:42pm I reckon the debate has moved on from that issue, Mr Rort.
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