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How do you define liberty? (Read 23808 times)
freediver
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #315 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:16pm
 
So in your NRA-fueled fantasy, a criminal wants a gun, and one just pops into his hand, and there is no way the law can interfere between the desire to posses a gun and getting your hands on one?

And the experience in Australia of criminals frequently having to make do with alternative (less lethal) weapons has no chance of penetrating this little fantasy of yours?

22 pages in, and we are back to you demonstrating the inability of NRA stooges to accept even the simplest aspects of reality.
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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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red baron
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #316 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:20pm
 
146 Police murdered in the U.S in a year not a problem to you Layfayette. Have a little read here from Wiki on the firearm stats in the U.S.

Tell you one thing I wouldn't be a Cop in the U.S. if they paid me a million bucks a year.

Gun violence in the United States


From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Gun violence in the United States results in thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013, firearms were used in 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) [2] and 11,208 deaths by homicide (3.5 per 100,000),[3] 21,175 by suicide with a firearm,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm,[4] and 281 deaths due to firearms-use with "undetermined intent"[5] for a total of 33,169 deaths related to firearms (excluding firearm deaths due to legal intervention). 1.3% of all deaths in the country were related to firearms.[1][6]

In 2010, according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, 67% of all homicides in the U.S. were conducted using a firearm.[7] According to the FBI, in 2012, there were 8,855 total firearm-related homicides in the US, with 6,371 of those attributed to handguns.[8] 61% of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. are suicides.[9] In 2010, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicides, and 11,078 firearm-related homicides in the U.S.[10] In 2010, 358 murders were reported involving a rifle while 6,009 were reported involving a handgun; another 1,939 were reported with an unspecified type of firearm.[11]

In 2010, gun violence cost U.S. taxpayers approximately $516 million in direct hospital costs.[12]

Gun violence is most common in poor urban areas and frequently associated with gang violence, often involving male juveniles or young adult males.[13][14] Although mass shootings have been covered extensively in the media, mass shootings account for a small fraction of gun-related deaths[9] and the frequency of these events steadily declined between 1994 and 2007, rising between 2007 and 2013, before continuing a downward decline.[15][16]

Legislation at the federal, state, and local levels has attempted to address gun violence through a variety of methods, including restricting firearms purchases by youths and other "at-risk" populations, setting waiting periods for firearm purchases, establishing gun buyback programs, law enforcement and policing strategies, stiff sentencing of gun law violators, education programs for parents and children, and community-outreach programs. Despite widespread concern about the impacts of gun violence on public health, Congress has banned the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) from conducting research on gun violence.[17]

The Congressional Research Service in 2009 estimated there were 310 million firearms in the U.S., not including weapons owned by the military. Of these, 114 million were handguns, 110 million were rifles, and 86 million were shotguns.[18] In that same year, the Census bureau stated the population of people in the U.S. at 306 million.[19] While the number of guns in civilian hands has been on the increase, the percentage of Americans and American households who claim to own guns has been in long-term decline. Thus, the Pew Research Center has extrapolated from this that "The percentage of American households with a gun has been steadily declining high of 54% in 1977 to 33% in 2009" and the "The average number of guns per owner has increased from 4.1 in 1994 to 6.9 in 2004.[20]
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Lafayette
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #317 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:25pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:16pm:
So in your NRA-fueled fantasy, a criminal wants a gun, and one just pops into his hand, and there is no way the law can interfere between the desire to posses a gun and getting your hands on one?

And do you think every criminal in the US that wants a gun can get it also? Guns aren't the only weapon used, you know. Even in states where you can buy a gun without a background check through a private purchase.

In fact, in states where most firearms are illegal to purchase, firearms are still used in robberies so clearly making them illegal in those states hasn't worked.

Firearms are used in approximately 40.3% of robberies in the US whereas strong arm, knives and other weapons make up the remaining 59.7%

freediver wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:16pm:
And the experience in Australia of criminals frequently having to make do with alternative (less lethal) weapons has no chance of penetrating this little fantasy of yours?

Australian law doesn't designate a knife as being less lethal than a gun. It considers both just as lethal as each other.
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Lafayette
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #318 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:30pm
 
red baron wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:20pm:
146 Police murdered in the U.S in a year not a problem to you Layfayette. Have a little read here from Wiki on the firearm stats in the U.S.

Tell you one thing I wouldn't be a Cop in the U.S. if they paid me a million bucks a year.


Would you be a roofer, fisherman, construction worker, truck driver or miner for $1 million a year? You're more likely to be killed doing one of these jobs than you are being a police officer in the US.
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Fuzzball
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #319 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:30pm
 
By the sounds of it (your username - and I may be wrong)) you reside in Louisiana.  I think besides TX, the only other State that has, shall we say ‘liberal’ gun laws is Colorado………..had no idea Louisiana was as ‘liberal’, even TX requires a CCL.

To buy a gun legitimately you are vetted (The Brady Bill) for a felony conviction. If you have a felony conviction you will not be sold a gun legally. Needless to say criminals don’t get vetted but also they are not vetted here or anywhere else for that matter.
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Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting,
"Holy Sh!t ... What a Ride!"
 
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Lafayette
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #320 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:34pm
 
Fuzzball wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:30pm:
By the sounds of it (your username - and I may be wrong)) you reside in Louisiana.  I think besides TX, the only other State that has, shall we say ‘liberal’ gun laws is Colorado………..had no idea Louisiana was as ‘liberal’, even TX requires a CCL.

To buy a gun legitimately you are vetted (The Brady Bill) for a felony conviction. If you have a felony conviction you will not be sold a gun legally. Needless to say criminals don’t get vetted but also they are not vetted here or anywhere else for that matter.

Actually my username is after the Marquis de Lafayette. A Frenchman that left France and the benefits of aristocracy and luxury of wealth to fight in the US War of Independence against the British and in particular, for the principles of liberty. He's a great inspiration to me.

I'm in the Commonwealth of Virginia and you can open carry legally here. Just like you can in many states without need for a permit. That is not to say that I don't have a permit to carry concealed, but I very rarely conceal carry. I mostly open carry unless it benefits me not to.

I also live in a state where I don't need to pass a background check to buy a firearm. I can purchase one from a private seller and not show any ID nor pass any background check to obtain it.
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« Last Edit: Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:39pm by Lafayette »  
 
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red baron
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #321 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:41pm
 
Lafayette would you please supply statistics to back your argument that you would be safer being a cop than.............anything.

I have outlayed substantial stats showing how dangerous it is on the U.S. streets. Now it's your turn to substantiate your argument.
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longweekend58
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #322 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:46pm
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:26pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 12:36pm:
you continue to be wrong.  self-defence does not give you the right to shoot. you are only allowed to defend with 'reasonable force' whch does not mean the right to shoot someone that breaks into your house.

all you want to do is kill people. it drips off every word you write.

Reasonable force depends on the threat that you are facing. If you reasonably believe that you or another person is faced with imminent grievous bodily harm or death then you may use deadly force to stop it.

You also claim that all I want to do is kill people. I've had the opportunity to do so already where I could have argued it was justified because I was face to face with someone wielding a knife and within meters of me, threatening to kill me but I didn't draw my firearm and shoot them, instead I de-escalated the situation by talking to the person. Not shooting them.

That's kind of the opposite of what you are suggesting.


BS
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Aussie
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #323 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:47pm
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:34pm:
Fuzzball wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:30pm:
By the sounds of it (your username - and I may be wrong)) you reside in Louisiana.  I think besides TX, the only other State that has, shall we say ‘liberal’ gun laws is Colorado………..had no idea Louisiana was as ‘liberal’, even TX requires a CCL.

To buy a gun legitimately you are vetted (The Brady Bill) for a felony conviction. If you have a felony conviction you will not be sold a gun legally. Needless to say criminals don’t get vetted but also they are not vetted here or anywhere else for that matter.

Actually my username is after the Marquis de Lafayette. A Frenchman that left France and the benefits of aristocracy and luxury of wealth to fight in the US War of Independence against the British and in particular, for the principles of liberty. He's a great inspiration to me.

I'm in the Commonwealth of Virginia and you can open carry legally here. Just like you can in many states without need for a permit. That is not to say that I don't have a permit to carry concealed, but I very rarely conceal carry. I mostly open carry unless it benefits me not to.

I also live in a state where I don't need to pass a background check to buy a firearm. I can purchase one from a private seller and not show any ID nor pass any background check to obtain it.


It is so obvious she is imminent danger.  I think the dog is carrying concealed and is about to shoot her. 

...
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Aussie
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #324 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:51pm
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:34pm:
Fuzzball wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:30pm:
By the sounds of it (your username - and I may be wrong)) you reside in Louisiana.  I think besides TX, the only other State that has, shall we say ‘liberal’ gun laws is Colorado………..had no idea Louisiana was as ‘liberal’, even TX requires a CCL.

To buy a gun legitimately you are vetted (The Brady Bill) for a felony conviction. If you have a felony conviction you will not be sold a gun legally. Needless to say criminals don’t get vetted but also they are not vetted here or anywhere else for that matter.

Actually my username is after the Marquis de Lafayette. A Frenchman that left France and the benefits of aristocracy and luxury of wealth to fight in the US War of Independence against the British and in particular, for the principles of liberty. He's a great inspiration to me.

I'm in the Commonwealth of Virginia and you can open carry legally here. Just like you can in many states without need for a permit. That is not to say that I don't have a permit to carry concealed, but I very rarely conceal carry. I mostly open carry unless it benefits me not to.

I also live in a state where I don't need to pass a background check to buy a firearm. I can purchase one from a private seller and not show any ID nor pass any background check to obtain it.


All your fancy open carry etc did not stop this nutcase/bloke. 

Link.
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longweekend58
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #325 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:52pm
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 3:44pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 3:37pm:
Pretty hard from here to grasp it all, but I've just done a Google search on the States in which more than three people were killed in Schools/Colleges/Unis over the last decade or so.  In the list is Texas, Arizona, Ohio, Iowa, Arkansas, Connecticut, Colorado, Oregon, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Virgina, Illinois and California.  Only California seems to have made some decent effort on gun control.  Guns are readily available in each of the other States, so I conclude you are posting garbage.

I think the point that you are missing is that the overwhelming majority of schools, colleges and universities are actually gun free zones. Particularly the schools. Mass shooters see them as easy targets to gain infamy and rack up the highest body count they can before they either kill themselves, or are killed by police.

They are generally losers, mentally disturbed that want to amount to something, but have failed in doing so, as a result they see the type of 'fame' that mass shooters get by killing as many as they can and they want to mimic the action, they want to be remembered, too. Even if it is as a person who committed such evil actions.

These gun free zones leave all of those inside defenceless against the murderous intent of these people.


it is that kind of insane drivel that makes you sound like a lunatic. you dont believe in liberty at all.  you just believe in guns largely because it is the only 'weapon' you will ever have. confident men women AND COUNTRIES dont need everyone carrying a gun.

and while we have been having this little debate 1000 americans died from guns while over here we had...????
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #326 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:53pm
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 3:47pm:
Aussie wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 3:41pm:
Oh I see.  There are nut cases on ice, so let's make it easy for them to get hold of assault rifles so that when they are off the planet, they have the easy capacity to slaughter kids at School.  Yeas.....that's logical!

So far as I'm aware there's never been an assault rifle used at a school shooting in the US.

You will not be able to legislate against mental illness without infringing on the rights of all of the people.


and as usual, you are dead wrong.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #327 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:55pm
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 3:56pm:
ian wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 3:48pm:
It will still be tested in a court of law generally if weapons have been involved. It is never black and white, that is my point. I have seen a couple of interesting precedents lately where charges have not been laid and deadly force has been used, however weapons appear not to have been involved. Both involved a home owner or neighbour defending against a violent attack in the home and either suffocating or strangling the offender to death. If you ever use a weapon in such circumstances you need to make sure you have a good lawyer.

In the US many states legislate laws that give an automatic assumption that if a person tries to break into your home or even your car whilst you are in it, that you would reasonably believe that they are an imminent threat of grievous bodily harm or death to you or your family and thus will be justified in using deadly force against them.

I live in the US and have attorneys on retainer in case I need to use my firearm for self defence.



ABSOLUTE BS!
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Lafayette
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #328 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 6:00pm
 
red baron wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:41pm:
Lafayette would you please supply statistics to back your argument that you would be safer being a cop than.............anything.

I have outlayed substantial stats showing how dangerous it is on the U.S. streets. Now it's your turn to substantiate your argument.

http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2015-dangerous-jobs/

Being a cop is 14th on the list, it's more dangerous being a taxi driver lol.
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longweekend58
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #329 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 6:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 5:02pm:
Quote:
1. So criminals in Australia never use guns? They're never armed? Well I guess the laws work, right?


This is a very simple point lafayette. I am surprised you still do not understand. Perhaps you should try reading it again. As far as I am concerned, less gun crime, fewer shootings and fewer deaths as a result counts as working. I realise that your only criteria is being able to fulfill your fantasy of gunning down a junkie in a liquor store robbery, but most people do not define liberty that way.

You claimed that gun laws are ineffective in preventing criminals from using guns. You were wrong. If you concede you were wrong on this point, we can move on to the next point you were wrong on.



Unfortunattely you have picked him perfectly. you can smell the bloodlust dripping off every word waiting for the chance to kill someone. the sad thing is statstics suggest the most likely victim will be his family.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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