Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Lafayette Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 316 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #300 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:28pm Fuzzball wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:27pm: In the face of deadly force, they are indeed allowed to use deadly force to protect or in defence of themselves, their colleagues and /or a member of the public..... As are the public.
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Fuzzball

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #301 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:34pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:27pm:

Fuzzball wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:23pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:36pm:

There are clear rules as to how police officers can engage with deadly force.... in self-defence or in defence of others..... in this way they are the ONLY ones legally entitled to use deadly force to defend others.... but the ordinary citizen has the right to use deadly force to defend his/her own life....

If it were my children under threat of life....

Wrong.................they can use REASONABLE force, NOT DEADLY force....!

To clarify when you are faced with what a reasonable person would believe is imminent grievous bodily harm or death you may use the minimum amount of force necessary to stop them, up to and including force that may result in the death or grievous bodily injury of the person posing the threat against you. Thus, the force that you use in that case, even if it is likely that it would end up killing the person, is reasonable.

That's what I mean by deadly force. In Australia they often refer to it as potentially lethal force.

For the sake of argument, let's say you defended yourself against a knife attack with a hammer. If you defend yourself with one blow to the shoulder, which disables your attacker rendering him incapable of further attack, you are NOT then allowed to deliver another blow......just to make sure....that is UNREASONABLE.

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Fuzzball Gold Member Offline Posts: 6384 Australia Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #302 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:35pm Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:28pm: Fuzzball wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:27pm: In the face of deadly force, they are indeed allowed to use deadly force to protect or in defence of themselves, their colleagues and /or a member of the public..... As are the public. No they are not.
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Fuzzball Gold Member Offline Posts: 6384 Australia Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #303 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:38pm It should also be noted that carrying a hammer or in fact anything else for the purpose of self-defense is illegal.......you would be carrying an offensive weapon and prosecuted as such.
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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #304 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:39pm

Fuzzball wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:35pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:28pm:

Fuzzball wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:27pm:

In the face of deadly force, they are indeed allowed to use deadly force to protect or in defence of themselves, their colleagues and /or a member of the public.....

As are the public.

No they are not.

We are in Queensland, but care needs to be taken.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #305 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:40pm

Fuzzball wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:34pm:

For the sake of argument, let's say you defended yourself against a knife attack with a hammer. If you defend yourself with one blow to the shoulder, which disables your attacker rendering him incapable of further attack, you are NOT then allowed to deliver another blow......just to make sure....that is UNREASONABLE.

Of course. To use deadly force does not mean that your intention is to kill them, nor that you should keep using such force until they die no matter the circumstance. It means that one could reasonably deduce that the use of such force is more likely to kill the person that you use it against than lesser amounts of force.

Once the person ceases the actions that a reasonable person would believe an imminent threat of grievous bodily harm or death, then your justification for using deadly force also ceases. If you continue using such force, then that is not self defence.

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #306 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:42pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:25pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:17pm:

Can you explain why Lafayette logic works when you say up to 5m but not up to 5km?

You need to be able to strike someone with a weapon. With a knife being within 5m makes it easier to strike them. With a gun, being within accurate firing range is necessary to hit them.

You just agreed that 5m is too far away to stab someone, but you spin still counts because you said 'up to 5m'. Where did you get this bullshit from? The NRA website?

Quote:

Behead people, cut people into pieces with chainsaws while they are alive, gun them down, all kinds of stuff.

If they don't hand over their lunch money? Did it ever occur to you that the people they are killing are most likely other armed criminals? Is having a gun on you going to prevent a drive-by shooting?

Quote:

And if it is a desperate junkie they'll use the knife or syringe that they have in their possession to take the money from the person trying to refuse or chase them off.

See this is where you butt heads with reality Lafayette. They frequently try to do this. But there are several points you are missing.

1) You were wrong to say that gun laws fail to prevent criminals using guns.

2) People don't get accidentally stabbed to death in such hold ups when the knife goes off in a nervous junkies hands.

3) People are more able to defend themselves in such situations, because contrary to your idiocy, knives are not more dangerous than guns. Often it comes to nothing more than the clerk refusing to hand over the money - not something they would do with a gun pointed at them. There is no need for them to play out the gun toting NRA hero of your idiotic fantasies and have a bloodbath. They just say "no, I am not going to give you the money". People actually do this in Australia, because our gun laws work.

Can you acknowledge any of these three points? I have been trying for several pages on the first one, but you seem impervious to the truth.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #307 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:42pm

Fuzzball wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:38pm:

It should also be noted that carrying a hammer or in fact anything else for the purpose of self-defense is illegal.......you would be carrying an offensive weapon and prosecuted as such.

Unless you have a 'legitimate' reason to be to be carrying a hammer that could be a defense to the crime you are charged with, ie you have just bought it and are taking it home, or you are a tradesperson etc.

Again, I live in the US and carry a gun on my hip in my day to day activities which is perfectly legal.

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Neferti

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #308 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:46pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:39pm:

We are in Queensland, but care needs to be taken.

The Sunniest but most backward State in Australia. The further North you get, the dumber they are. Bogans mostly, but lots of serial killers and paedophiles in Queensland. Lawyers and Politicians who are "crooks" as well. Arsie knows a lot of them, personally. Wink

I do have many real Queensland friends ....... it's only people like arsie that turn you off about Queensland.

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« Last Edit: Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:57pm by Neferti »

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Fuzzball

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #309 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:48pm

Most if not all incidents of self-defense by a member of the public is taken without thought and as a natural reaction. In which case, depending on the circumstances, the Court would I imagine be sympathetic to the member of the public, always providing this person did not carry a weapon to specifically use to defend him/herself i.e. a pocket knife.

Now that I know you're in the US and have a CC license, your argument here is null and void. We have no Second Amendment, and our laws are completely different.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #310 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:49pm

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:42pm:

You just agreed that 5m is too far away to stab someone, but you spin still counts because you said 'up to 5m'. Where did you get this bullshit from? The NRA website?

I'm thinking we're talking about two different things. Are you suggesting that a criminal can't stab an innocent person if they are within 5m of that person?

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:42pm:

If they don't hand over their lunch money? Did it ever occur to you that the people they are killing are most likely other armed criminals? Is having a gun on you going to prevent a drive-by shooting?

If the people are thought to be informing on the cartels to the authorities, they get chopped into pieces. Are you suggesting that the people should just stand by and allow the cartels to take over?

And yes, having a firearm on you can stop a drive by shooting. If you are able to shoot back etc.

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:42pm:

See this is where you butt heads with reality Lafayette. They frequently try to do this. But there are several points you are missing.

1) You were wrong to say that gun laws fail to prevent criminals using guns.

2) People don't get accidentally stabbed to death in such hold ups when the knife goes off in a nervous junkies hands.

3) People are more able to defend themselves in such situations, becayuse contrary to your idiocy, knives are not more dangerous than guns. Often it comes to nothing more than the clerk refusing to hand over the money - not something they would do with a gun pointed at them.

Can you acknowledge any of these three points? I have been trying for several pages on the first one, but you seem impervious to the truth.

1. So criminals in Australia never use guns? They're never armed? Well I guess the laws work, right?
2. It doesn't need to be accidental, stand between a junkie that is desperate for a fix and their means to get it and it won't need to be an accident, their stabbing you will be intentional.
3. People here refuse to give the money to robbers with guns all the time. Just like they do to people with knives. Both are in danger of being stabbed or shot, which is why they should be armed.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #311 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 5:01pm

Fuzzball wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:48pm:

Most if not all incidents of self-defense by a member of the public is taken without thought and as a natural reaction. In which case, depending on the circumstances, the Court would I imagine be sympathetic to the member of the public, always providing this person did not carry a weapon to specifically use to defend him/herself i.e. a pocket knife.

Now that I know you're in the US and have a CC license, your argument here is null and void. We have no Second Amendment, and our laws are completely different.

I don't need a permit to carry a firearm in my state.

And this goes back towards the discussion of liberty and what defines rightful liberty.
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." - Thomas Jefferson

So ultimately, something may be illegal, but it doesn't mean that you lose that right. It just means that the government and maybe even the overwhelming majority don't respect that right and would rather infringe on that right for the 'greater good' or to 'save the children'

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Neferti Gold Member Offline Posts: 7965 Canberra Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #312 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 5:01pm Forget about crims. Let's talk MURDER of a spouse to avoid DIVORCE! The USA is full of it ... and they LIE when caught.
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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #313 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 5:02pm

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1. So criminals in Australia never use guns? They're never armed? Well I guess the laws work, right?

This is a very simple point lafayette. I am surprised you still do not understand. Perhaps you should try reading it again. As far as I am concerned, less gun crime, fewer shootings and fewer deaths as a result counts as working. I realise that your only criteria is being able to fulfill your fantasy of gunning down a junkie in a liquor store robbery, but most people do not define liberty that way.

You claimed that gun laws are ineffective in preventing criminals from using guns. You were wrong. If you concede you were wrong on this point, we can move on to the next point you were wrong on.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #314 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 5:06pm

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 5:02pm:

This is a very simple point lafayette. I am surprised you still do not understand. Perhaps you should try reading it again. As far as I am concerned, less gun crime, fewer shootings and fewer deaths as a result counts as working. I realise that your only criteria is being able to fulfill your fantasy of gunning down a junkie in a liquor store robbery, but most people do not define liberty that way.

You claimed that gun laws are ineffective in preventing criminals from using guns. You were wrong. If you concede you were wrong on this point, we can move on to the next point you were wrong on.

No, gun laws won't stop criminals from using guns if they want to use them because, by definition, criminals don't care what the law states.

I'm not sure why you must insist that my reason for believing in the right to keep and bear arms is because I want to kill a person when that is not the case. But I guess you'll try and attribute my beliefs to whatever makes you feel best inside, right?

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