Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

ian

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #285 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:01pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:57pm:

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:56pm:

You are still wrong.

So are you suggesting that if someone is within 5m distance of you that they can't stab you?

No, as i stated the chances of dying of a knife attack or sustaining severe wounds as against a gun attack in similar circumstances are much lower. Ever hear of defence wounds in a gun attack? The NRA knife attack thing is complete codswallop.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #286 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:01pm

red baron wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:52pm:

Just to bring a little balance into what you are saying Aussie re people being murdered by cops every week in the U.S. which of course you are exactly right in saying. But in the sense of fairness I would like to say, there are Police murdered every week in the U.S. by criminals with gun control laws that are non existent and make every shift a nightmare for a cop, where it is not only likely but probable that he/she will be shot at during the course of their careers..'

A total of 1,466 law enforcement officers died in the line of duty during the past 10 years, an average of one death every 60 hours or 146 per year. There were 117 law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty in 2014.
U.S.A.

146 police die every year? It's really not that many when you consider that there are approximately 765,000 sworn state and local law enforcement officers in the US. There are many more dangerous jobs and unfortunately the police tendency to overblow the amount of danger they face day to day leads to many unnecessary shootings of people.

There is a big problem with policing in the US. The models in policing that many agencies use are ineffective.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #287 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:03pm

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:01pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:57pm:

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:56pm:

You are still wrong.

So are you suggesting that if someone is within 5m distance of you that they can't stab you?

No, as i stated the chances of dying of a knife attack or sustaining severe wounds as against a gun attack in similar circumstances are much lower. Ever hear of defence wounds in a gun attack? The NRA knife attack thing is complete codswallop.

That would depend on the type of wound. Slashing vs Stabbing. Certainly a stab wound is probably going to be less dangerous than a gunshot, but many wounds that slash do more damage due to the nature of the wound profile. There is a higher chance of cutting arteries and organs.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #288 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:03pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:47pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:41pm:

Oh I see. There are nut cases on ice, so let's make it easy for them to get hold of assault rifles so that when they are off the planet, they have the easy capacity to slaughter kids at School. Yeas.....that's logical!

So far as I'm aware there's never been an assault rifle used at a school shooting in the US.

You are ignorant of the facts, then. Sandy Hook, and please read:

Link.

Quote:

You will not be able to legislate against mental illness without infringing on the rights of all of the people.

True, you cannot legislate against dumb, but you can make it near impossible for dumbies to get their hands on weapons to take to a School and slaughter kids there, kids living in this mythical Land of Liberty you are talking up.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #289 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:09pm

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:59pm:

So using Lafayette logic, we could also say that knives are more dangerous than guns within 5km. Do I understand your spin correctly?

No, you don't.

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:59pm:

Do you think that if more Mexicans owned guns, they would stand up to the organised crime syndicates? Or are you merely trying to characterise all crime as the highly organised variety to push what is obviously a lie?

Yes, I believe that if Mexicans were generally armed and had a will to stand up to these cartels that they could drive them out.

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:59pm:

Can you acknowledge that our gun laws do actually result in the disarming of criminals?

I would say that criminals are less likely feel the need to procure and to use firearms to commit crimes because they would generally feel that there is less resistance when the citizenry are unarmed.

Though we do know that criminals still do obtain firearms despite the laws and do use them to commit crimes.

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BigOl64

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #290 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:11pm

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:01pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:57pm:

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:56pm:

You are still wrong.

So are you suggesting that if someone is within 5m distance of you that they can't stab you?

No, as i stated the chances of dying of a knife attack or sustaining severe wounds as against a gun attack in similar circumstances are much lower. Ever hear of defence wounds in a gun attack? The NRA knife attack thing is complete codswallop.

Actually the mortally rate for hand guns and knives are about the same. So long as you don't get stabbed / shot in the head or heart your chance of being killed by it is about 15 - 20%.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/1997/02/24/knives-00006/

Before the cretins get the 'reductio' all charged up, it is based on an ambo showing up in a decent amount of time and getting you to hospital.

Remember ubermorons, this does NOT include longarms.

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Neferti

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #291 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:13pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:03pm:

True, you cannot legislate against dumb, but you can make it near impossible for dumbies to get their hands on weapons to take to a School and slaughter kids there, kids living in this mythical Land of Liberty you are talking up.

There are Law Abiding Citizens and Others. Legislation or the threat of gaol will NOT stop people committing crimes ... with or without guns.

Americans consider it their right to wear a piece. LARAMIE DAYS? Shoot Outs in New York or Washington DC? Great way to settle an argument.

Arsie and I might end up with pistols at Dawn at 12 paces or whatever. He needs to know I am smarter, and a better shot, than he is.

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #292 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:17pm

Quote:

No, you don't.

Can you explain why Lafayette logic works when you say up to 5m but not up to 5km?

Quote:

Yes, I believe that if Mexicans were generally armed and had a will to stand up to these cartels that they could drive them out.

What do these organised crime gangs do? Rob people of their lunch money?

Quote:

I would say that criminals are less likely feel the need to procure and to use firearms to commit crimes because they would generally feel that there is less resistance when the citizenry are unarmed.

Wrong again Lafayette. They actually get more resistance because our laws have effectively disarmed criminals. People often simply refuse to give them the money, or chase them off. Making guns so freely available makes it very easy for a desperate junkie to get their hands on one and use it to fund their next fix, which is why it is such a stupid idea. And your fantasy about an armed citizenry being a disincentive actually makes them more trigger happy.

You have a hard trouble acknowledging reality don't you?

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ian

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #293 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:18pm

BigOl64 wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:11pm:

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:01pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:57pm:

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:56pm:

You are still wrong.

So are you suggesting that if someone is within 5m distance of you that they can't stab you?

No, as i stated the chances of dying of a knife attack or sustaining severe wounds as against a gun attack in similar circumstances are much lower. Ever hear of defence wounds in a gun attack? The NRA knife attack thing is complete codswallop.

Actually the mortally rate for hand guns and knives are about the same. So long as you don't get stabbed / shot in the head or heart your chance of being killed by it is about 15 - 20%.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/1997/02/24/knives-00006/

Before the cretins get the 'reductio' all charged up, it is based on an ambo showing up in a decent amount of time and getting you to hospital.

Remember ubermorons, this does NOT include longarms.

The link you posted relates to wounds caused by these weapons. Nothing to do with what we are discussing.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #294 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:19pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:03pm:

You are ignorant of the facts, then. Sandy Hook, and please read:

Link.

If you re-read the link, you'll find that no assault rifle was used. It was a semi-automatic rifle. Assault rifles are select fire and will not only shoot semi auto but will also shoot either burst fire or fully automatic.

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:03pm:

True, you cannot legislate against dumb, but you can make it near impossible for dumbies to get their hands on weapons to take to a School and slaughter kids there, kids living in this mythical Land of Liberty you are talking up.

Right, you can do that by preventing all law abiding citizens from having the means to defend their lives and the lives of their families.

I'm sorry but I don't agree with that. We believe the right to keep and bear arms is to defend ours rights from being usurped by criminals, be they common, organized or government.

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Fuzzball

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #295 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:23pm

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:36pm:

There are clear rules as to how police officers can engage with deadly force.... in self-defence or in defence of others..... in this way they are the ONLY ones legally entitled to use deadly force to defend others.... but the ordinary citizen has the right to use deadly force to defend his/her own life....

If it were my children under threat of life....

Wrong.................they can use REASONABLE force, NOT DEADLY force....!

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #296 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:25pm

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:17pm:

Can you explain why Lafayette logic works when you say up to 5m but not up to 5km?

You need to be able to strike someone with a weapon. With a knife being within 5m makes it easier to strike them. With a gun, being within accurate firing range is necessary to hit them.

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:17pm:

What do these organised crime gangs do? Rob people of their lunch money?

Behead people, cut people into pieces with chainsaws while they are alive, gun them down, all kinds of stuff.

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:17pm:

Wrong again Lafayette. They actually get more resistance because our laws have effectively disarmed criminals. People often simply refuse to give them the money, or chase them off. Making guns so freely available makes it very easy for a desperate junkie to get their hands on one and use it to fund their next fix, which is why it is such a stupid idea. And your fantasy about an armed citizenry being a disincentive actually makes them more trigger happy.

You have a hard trouble acknowledging reality don't you?

And if it is a desperate junkie they'll use the knife or syringe that they have in their possession to take the money from the person trying to refuse or chase them off.

I'm not sure about you but I'd rather have the means to defend myself against a junkie armed with a gun or a knife than be at their mercy when they are the only one of us that is armed.

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BigOl64

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #297 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:26pm

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:18pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:11pm:

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:01pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:57pm:

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:56pm:

You are still wrong.

So are you suggesting that if someone is within 5m distance of you that they can't stab you?

No, as i stated the chances of dying of a knife attack or sustaining severe wounds as against a gun attack in similar circumstances are much lower. Ever hear of defence wounds in a gun attack? The NRA knife attack thing is complete codswallop.

Actually the mortally rate for hand guns and knives are about the same. So long as you don't get stabbed / shot in the head or heart your chance of being killed by it is about 15 - 20%.

http://scienceblogs.com/deltoid/1997/02/24/knives-00006/

Before the cretins get the 'reductio' all charged up, it is based on an ambo showing up in a decent amount of time and getting you to hospital.

Remember ubermorons, this does NOT include longarms.

The link you posted relates to wounds caused by these weapons. Nothing to do with what we are discussing.

Check the highlighted bit, that you posted. My reply answers that statement directly.

The chance of being killed by a knife as opposed to (hand) gun are about the same and not lower as you stated.

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Fuzzball

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #298 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:27pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 2:28pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:36pm:

There are clear rules as to how police officers can engage with deadly force.... in self-defence or in defence of others..... in this way they are the ONLY ones legally entitled to use deadly force to defend others.... but the ordinary citizen has the right to use deadly force to defend his/her own life....

If it were my children under threat of life....

The police aren't the only ones allowed to use deadly force in defence of others. To suggest this is idiotic.

In the face of deadly force, they are indeed allowed to use deadly force to protect or in defence of themselves, their colleagues and /or a member of the public.....

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Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting,
"Holy Sh!t ... What a Ride!"

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #299 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:27pm

Fuzzball wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:23pm:

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:36pm:

There are clear rules as to how police officers can engage with deadly force.... in self-defence or in defence of others..... in this way they are the ONLY ones legally entitled to use deadly force to defend others.... but the ordinary citizen has the right to use deadly force to defend his/her own life....

If it were my children under threat of life....

Wrong.................they can use REASONABLE force, NOT DEADLY force....!

To clarify when you are faced with what a reasonable person would believe is imminent grievous bodily harm or death you may use the minimum amount of force necessary to stop them, up to and including force that may result in the death or grievous bodily injury of the person posing the threat against you. Thus, the force that you use in that case, even if it is likely that it would end up killing the person, is reasonable.

That's what I mean by deadly force. In Australia they often refer to it as potentially lethal force.

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