Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Melanias purse

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #270 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:23pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:26pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:36pm:

you continue to be wrong. self-defence does not give you the right to shoot. you are only allowed to defend with 'reasonable force' whch does not mean the right to shoot someone that breaks into your house.

all you want to do is kill people. it drips off every word you write.

Reasonable force depends on the threat that you are facing. If you reasonably believe that you or another person is faced with imminent grievous bodily harm or death then you may use deadly force to stop it.

You also claim that all I want to do is kill people. I've had the opportunity to do so already where I could have argued it was justified because I was face to face with someone wielding a knife and within meters of me, threatening to kill me but I didn't draw my firearm and shoot them, instead I de-escalated the situation by talking to the person. Not shooting them.

That's kind of the opposite of what you are suggesting.

Yes, but what Longy wants is a terrorist attack on Australian soil to shut the idiots up and let Mr Abbott take control of our security again.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #271 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:37pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:00pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 2:54pm:

They now have that right.......yet there are murdered by Cops every week in the Land of Liberty

And it is a right that they very few African Americans exercise. Unfortunately they've been led to believe that non violence in the face of violence is an acceptable method of living life. Something I don't agree with.

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 2:54pm:

Sure. By way of metaphor, let's compare a photo of down town Philadelphia in July 1776 with one taken in July 2015. Same 'world' my arse.

It is the same world in that liberty is still precious and the nature of man has not changed.

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 2:54pm:

I noticed your obvious avoidance of my comment about kids being (also routinely) slaughtered en mass at School in this Land of Liberty you have adopted.

You mean in places where firearms are banned? Surely if banning firearms in a certain place were a good idea to stop gun violence, then gun violence wouldn't occur where it was illegal, right?

Pretty hard from here to grasp it all, but I've just done a Google search on the States in which more than three people were killed in Schools/Colleges/Unis over the last decade or so. In the list is Texas, Arizona, Ohio, Iowa, Arkansas, Connecticut, Colorado, Oregon, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Virgina, Illinois and California. Only California seems to have made some decent effort on gun control. Guns are readily available in each of the other States, so I conclude you are posting garbage.

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Lafayette Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 316 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #272 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:40pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:23pm: Yes, but what Longy wants is a terrorist attack on Australian soil to shut the idiots up and let Mr Abbott take control of our security again. I wonder what Longy would consider the Australian government taking control of security again to mean exactly?
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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #273 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:41pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:17pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:12pm:

Quote:

You mean in places where firearms are banned? Surely if banning firearms in a certain place were a good idea to stop gun violence, then gun violence wouldn't occur where it was illegal, right?

So, to adopt the John Oliver (obvious) argument (see the video above)..........we should never even attempt by Law to restrict the sale of drugs? It's just not worth the effort.

"Unless we can get rid of 100% of crime by limiting access to guns, it is not worth doing it?"

Yeas?

I don't believe we should restrict the sale or use of drugs at all in the first place. If you're an adult then you have the right to do as you please so long as you don't infringe on the rights of another.

The point I made is that criminals by their virtue don't give a damn about what the law says, so banning firearms won't stop criminals from using them, it only prevents innocent people who have no inclination of breaking the law from owning them.

With regards to school shootings and other mass shootings. It's a mental illness issue and the overprescription of psychotropic drugs should be addressed. That's why there are many more mass shootings in the US than there is in Switzerland, yet the Swiss are armed very well.

Oh I see. There are nut cases on ice, so let's make it easy for them to get hold of assault rifles so that when they are off the planet, they have the easy capacity to slaughter kids at School. Yeas.....that's logical!

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #274 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:44pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:37pm:

Pretty hard from here to grasp it all, but I've just done a Google search on the States in which more than three people were killed in Schools/Colleges/Unis over the last decade or so. In the list is Texas, Arizona, Ohio, Iowa, Arkansas, Connecticut, Colorado, Oregon, Minnesota, Pennsylvania, Virgina, Illinois and California. Only California seems to have made some decent effort on gun control. Guns are readily available in each of the other States, so I conclude you are posting garbage.

I think the point that you are missing is that the overwhelming majority of schools, colleges and universities are actually gun free zones. Particularly the schools. Mass shooters see them as easy targets to gain infamy and rack up the highest body count they can before they either kill themselves, or are killed by police.

They are generally losers, mentally disturbed that want to amount to something, but have failed in doing so, as a result they see the type of 'fame' that mass shooters get by killing as many as they can and they want to mimic the action, they want to be remembered, too. Even if it is as a person who committed such evil actions.

These gun free zones leave all of those inside defenceless against the murderous intent of these people.

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Neferti

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #275 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:44pm

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:23pm:

Yes, but what Longy wants is a terrorist attack on Australian soil to shut the idiots up and let Mr Abbott take control of our security again.

I usually ignore the absolute crap you spout out but this comment is total STUPIDITY.

GO, Get a life somewhere other than Forums where sane people want to communicate. Perhaps the local Mosque? Jerk.

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #276 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:44pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:42am:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 8:55am:

Again you are wrong Lafayette. We read plenty of stories in the newspaper about junkies trying to hold up a servo with a syringe or a knife and getting chased off by the guy behind the counter. Or they simply refuse to give them the money.

In the US, the junkie would have a gun and everyone in the store would be shitting themselves hoping that no-one dies today.

When you respond, instead of saying "even if I am wrong," or changing the subject, try just admitting you are wrong.

What do you think is more dangerous within 5m, a person with a handgun or a knife? The answer is the knife, not the gun. I'd much rather be attacked and shot at with a handgun at that distance than attacked with a knife.

You're actually more likely to die from the knife attack than the gun attack at those ranges.

What you also seem to be missing is the fact that here, not only can criminals get their hands on firearms, but so can the law abiding. So as a result, many people that work in a servo are armed and have frequently been able to shoot someone committing an armed robbery against them.

So ultimately, firearms at the very least act as an equalizer. Whereas someone robbing a gas station with a knife or syringe has the upper hand.

I've never heard of anyone being stabbed by a person 5m away. In fact, I've never heard of anyone dying in a robbery not involving guns. But thanks for once again demonstrating the endless depth of NRA bullshit.

Remember, this all started with a claim by you - not regarding what is means to be free, but what the actual outcome of banning guns is. You claimed that it made no difference to the use of guns by criminals. You were wrong. Now you are trying to rescue that idiocy by insisting knives are more dangerous than guns.

Quote:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 8:55am:

When I was in the US in my younger days, I was once in a car with some friends, all male, and they were afraid to get out of the car in what looked to me like a very normal street, because they thought there was a significant chance of getting shot. Would you say they had the greater liberty? Do you think being afraid to walk down the street makes them less likely to hand unreasonable powers to the government?

Your personal safety is your own responsibility. If you're unprepared to carry a firearm, get the training and defend yourself then by all means, move to some place with less freedom and more safety..

So you actually define liberty as being too scared to walk down the street without a gun?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #277 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:47pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:41pm:

Oh I see. There are nut cases on ice, so let's make it easy for them to get hold of assault rifles so that when they are off the planet, they have the easy capacity to slaughter kids at School. Yeas.....that's logical!

So far as I'm aware there's never been an assault rifle used at a school shooting in the US.

You will not be able to legislate against mental illness without infringing on the rights of all of the people.

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ian

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #278 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:48pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 2:39pm:

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:55pm:

No, not your own personal belief. It must be the belief of a reasonable person. a paranoid junkie may very well believe they are in danger or great harm, but if a reasonable person would not believe that in a similar situation then it wont wash in court. There are no clear hard and fast rules here. The law can be quite grey in this regard.

That's why I said the belief must be reasonable. Because it is the belief of a reasonable person.

It will still be tested in a court of law generally if weapons have been involved. It is never black and white, that is my point. I have seen a couple of interesting precedents lately where charges have not been laid and deadly force has been used, however weapons appear not to have been involved. Both involved a home owner or neighbour defending against a violent attack in the home and either suffocating or strangling the offender to death. If you ever use a weapon in such circumstances you need to make sure you have a good lawyer.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #279 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:52pm

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:44pm:

I've never heard of anyone being stabbed by a person 5m away. In fact, I've never heard of anyone dying in a robbery not involving guns. But thanks for once again demonstrating the endless depth of NRA bullshit.

That's why I said, within 5m, not just 5m.

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:44pm:

Remember, this all started with a claim by you - not regarding what is means to be free, but what the actual outcome of banning guns is. You claimed that it made no difference to the use of guns by criminals. You were wrong. Now you are trying to rescue that idiocy by insisting knives are more dangerous than guns.

Mexico is an example of criminals that obtain and use firearms when those firearms are illegal and they victimize the whole community as a result.

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:44pm:

So you actually define liberty as being too scared to walk down the street without a gun?

No, I defined rightful liberty earlier with Jefferson's quote on the matter.

But a person having the means to defend their rights is most certainly an indication of liberty.

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red baron

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #280 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:52pm

Just to bring a little balance into what you are saying Aussie re people being murdered by cops every week in the U.S. which of course you are exactly right in saying. But in the sense of fairness I would like to say, there are Police murdered every week in the U.S. by criminals with gun control laws that are non existent and make every shift a nightmare for a cop, where it is not only likely but probable that he/she will be shot at during the course of their careers..'

A total of 1,466 law enforcement officers died in the line of duty during the past 10 years, an average of one death every 60 hours or 146 per year. There were 117 law enforcement officers killed in the line of duty in 2014.
U.S.A.

National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: Law ...

www.nleomf.org/facts/enforcement/

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ian

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #281 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:56pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:52pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:44pm:

I've never heard of anyone being stabbed by a person 5m away. In fact, I've never heard of anyone dying in a robbery not involving guns. But thanks for once again demonstrating the endless depth of NRA bullshit.

That's why I said, within 5m, not just 5m.

You are still wrong.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #282 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:56pm

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:48pm:

It will still be tested in a court of law generally if weapons have been involved. It is never black and white, that is my point. I have seen a couple of interesting precedents lately where charges have not been laid and deadly force has been used, however weapons appear not to have been involved. Both involved a home owner or neighbour defending against a violent attack in the home and either suffocating or strangling the offender to death. If you ever use a weapon in such circumstances you need to make sure you have a good lawyer.

In the US many states legislate laws that give an automatic assumption that if a person tries to break into your home or even your car whilst you are in it, that you would reasonably believe that they are an imminent threat of grievous bodily harm or death to you or your family and thus will be justified in using deadly force against them.

I live in the US and have attorneys on retainer in case I need to use my firearm for self defence.

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Lafayette Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 316 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #283 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:57pm ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:56pm: You are still wrong. So are you suggesting that if someone is within 5m distance of you that they can't stab you?
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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #284 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:59pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:52pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:44pm:

I've never heard of anyone being stabbed by a person 5m away. In fact, I've never heard of anyone dying in a robbery not involving guns. But thanks for once again demonstrating the endless depth of NRA bullshit.

That's why I said, within 5m, not just 5m.

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:44pm:

Remember, this all started with a claim by you - not regarding what is means to be free, but what the actual outcome of banning guns is. You claimed that it made no difference to the use of guns by criminals. You were wrong. Now you are trying to rescue that idiocy by insisting knives are more dangerous than guns.

Mexico is an example of criminals that obtain and use firearms when those firearms are illegal and they victimize the whole community as a result.

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 3:44pm:

So you actually define liberty as being too scared to walk down the street without a gun?

No, I defined rightful liberty earlier with Jefferson's quote on the matter.

But a person having the means to defend their rights is most certainly an indication of liberty.

So using Lafayette logic, we could also say that knives are more dangerous than guns within 5km. Do I understand your spin correctly?

Do you think that if more Mexicans owned guns, they would stand up to the organised crime syndicates? Or are you merely trying to characterise all crime as the highly organised variety to push what is obviously a lie?

Can you acknowledge that our gun laws do actually result in the disarming of criminals?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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