Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Melanias purse Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 101031	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #15 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:32pm Freeeedom, innit. Where does banning religion come into it, FD? I'm curious.
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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #16 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:45pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 11:51am:

Thomas Jefferson, the author of the US Declaration of Independence stated:
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

I concur with this definition. You, as an adult, should be able to do whatever you wish, so long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

That's a fabulous definition.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #17 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:47pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:45pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 11:51am:

Thomas Jefferson, the author of the US Declaration of Independence stated:
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

I concur with this definition. You, as an adult, should be able to do whatever you wish, so long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

That's a fabulous definition.

Sure.....depends who is drawing the limits 'around us.'

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Bias_2012

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #18 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:50pm

I took the liberty of decentralizing from the big city ... good bye to multiculturalism, congested traffic, kabab shops lacing coffee with epson salts, neighbors from hell, noise pollution, carbon monoxide

I now get peace of mind, lower stress level, picturesque scenery, friendly local folks as neighbors, clean air to breath, a minimum of government interference and I get a plentiful supply of free water

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Our Lives Are Governed By The Feast & Famine Variable

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Kytro

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #19 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 11:51am:

I concur with this definition. You, as an adult, should be able to do whatever you wish, so long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river at a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #20 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:00pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:47pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:45pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 11:51am:

Thomas Jefferson, the author of the US Declaration of Independence stated:
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual."

I concur with this definition. You, as an adult, should be able to do whatever you wish, so long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

That's a fabulous definition.

Sure.....depends who is drawing the limits 'around us.'

There is that 'lawyer brain' of yours at work. Utterly unable to work out the rather simple answer.

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #21 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:01pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:50pm:

I took the liberty of decentralizing from the big city ... good bye to multiculturalism, congested traffic, kabab shops lacing coffee with epson salts, neighbors from hell, noise pollution, carbon monoxide

I now get peace of mind, lower stress level, picturesque scenery, friendly local folks as neighbors, clean air to breath, a minimum of government interference and I get a plentiful supply of free water

Only if you obtain it unlawfully.

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #22 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:04pm

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 11:51am:

I concur with this definition. You, as an adult, should be able to do whatever you wish, so long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river at a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

If you are looking for a definition of liberty you will never get one that codifies ever conceivable interaction among men. The definition itself assumes people with a genuine desire for liberty and a respect for the rights of others which would solve all such issues amicable and reasonably.

The failure of freedom everywhere is that such people are not the majority - hence judicial systems, police and often... conflict.

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Kytro

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #23 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:07pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:04pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 11:51am:

I concur with this definition. You, as an adult, should be able to do whatever you wish, so long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river at a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

If you are looking for a definition of liberty you will never get one that codifies ever conceivable interaction among men. The definition itself assumes people with a genuine desire for liberty and a respect for the rights of others which would solve all such issues amicable and reasonably.

The failure of freedom everywhere is that such people are not the majority - hence judicial systems, police and often... conflict.

The point is more that freedom and liberty are large part illusion, no matter if the government has regulations or not. Factors that cannot be controlled drive so much of where you will end up, what you will become and how your life will unfold that it often renders the choices that you can predict meaningless.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #24 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:07pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:08pm:

Historically.......liberty meant getting rid of an aristocracy (France) and colonialists (USA.)

Then the replacements/gap fillers limited liberty at their very creation. There is no such thing, unless you are happy with your own resources on an island no one else knows about.

Actually, in the US liberty meant getting rid of the monarchy, and establishing a constitutional republic. It was the colonialists that fought to remove the monarchy and become free.

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freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #25 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:14pm

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 11:51am:

I concur with this definition. You, as an adult, should be able to do whatever you wish, so long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river at a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

It is a principle, not a rule. So long as you both have equal legal access, the principle holds.

Quote:

The point is more that freedom and liberty are large part illusion, no matter if the government has regulations or not. Factors that cannot be controlled drive so much of where you will end up, what you will become and how your life will unfold that it often renders the choices that you can predict meaningless.

You are confusing liberty with power. It does not mean having everything you want, or the absence of natural limits.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Kytro

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #26 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:19pm

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:14pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 11:51am:

I concur with this definition. You, as an adult, should be able to do whatever you wish, so long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river at a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

It is a principle, not a rule. So long as you both have equal legal access, the principle holds.

Quote:

The point is more that freedom and liberty are large part illusion, no matter if the government has regulations or not. Factors that cannot be controlled drive so much of where you will end up, what you will become and how your life will unfold that it often renders the choices that you can predict meaningless.

You are confusing liberty with power. It does not mean having everything you want, or the absence of natural limits.

It's just a cloak for reality, though. What's the benefit a principle that does nothing?

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Bias_2012 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10766 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #27 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:20pm mariacostel wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:01pm: Only if you obtain it unlawfully. lol you're a card maria, trying to incriminate me ? when you've got a large tank holding more H2o than I ever need per month and usually much longer than that, you'll get it for free too
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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #28 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:26pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:07pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:08pm:

Historically.......liberty meant getting rid of an aristocracy (France) and colonialists (USA.)

Then the replacements/gap fillers limited liberty at their very creation. There is no such thing, unless you are happy with your own resources on an island no one else knows about.

Actually, in the US liberty meant getting rid of the monarchy, and establishing a constitutional republic. It was the colonialists that fought to remove the monarchy and become free.

That is a given, and in that very process, established rules which are anathema to 'liberty.'

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #29 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:28pm

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:19pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:14pm:

Kytro wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:57pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 11:51am:

I concur with this definition. You, as an adult, should be able to do whatever you wish, so long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of another person.

This is far more complex than it might appear.

Say I want to live on the banks of a river at a particularly picturesque spot. Say someone else does as well. Since there is one spot and we both cannot live there if one person does, it denies the other.

This is true for many, many resources. For one set of people to have something, another set must give up something. There are very few things that truly do not impact other people.

It is a principle, not a rule. So long as you both have equal legal access, the principle holds.

Quote:

The point is more that freedom and liberty are large part illusion, no matter if the government has regulations or not. Factors that cannot be controlled drive so much of where you will end up, what you will become and how your life will unfold that it often renders the choices that you can predict meaningless.

You are confusing liberty with power. It does not mean having everything you want, or the absence of natural limits.

It's just a cloak for reality, though. What's the benefit a principle that does nothing?

Absolutely. It's (liberty) a nice notion to discuss but in the real world, it simply does not exist.

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