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How do you define liberty? (Read 23880 times)
Aussie
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #255 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:40pm
 
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:36pm:
There are clear rules as to how police officers can engage with deadly force.... in self-defence or in defence of others..... in this way they are the ONLY ones legally entitled to use deadly force to defend others.... but the ordinary citizen has the right to use deadly force to defend his/her own life....

If it were my children under threat of life....


There are in Queensland:

Quote:
CRIMINAL CODE - SECT 273
273 Aiding in self-defence

In any case in which it is lawful for any person to use force of any degree for the purpose of defending himself or herself against an assault, it is lawful for any other person acting in good faith in the first person's aid to use a like degree of force for the purpose of defending the first person.

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Aussie
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #256 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:42pm
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:26pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 12:36pm:
you continue to be wrong.  self-defence does not give you the right to shoot. you are only allowed to defend with 'reasonable force' whch does not mean the right to shoot someone that breaks into your house.

all you want to do is kill people. it drips off every word you write.

Reasonable force depends on the threat that you are facing. If you reasonably believe that you or another person is faced with imminent grievous bodily harm or death then you may use deadly force to stop it.

You also claim that all I want to do is kill people. I've had the opportunity to do so already where I could have argued it was justified because I was face to face with someone wielding a knife and within meters of me, threatening to kill me but I didn't draw my firearm and shoot them, instead I de-escalated the situation by talking to the person. Not shooting them.

That's kind of the opposite of what you are suggesting.


This is the codified explanation of the position in Queensland:

Quote:
CRIMINAL CODE - SECT 271
271 Self-defence against unprovoked assault

(1) When a person is unlawfully assaulted, and has not provoked the assault, it is lawful for the person to use such force to the assailant as is reasonably necessary to make effectual defence against the assault, if the force used is not intended, and is not such as is likely, to cause death or grievous bodily harm.

(2) If the nature of the assault is such as to cause reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm, and the person using force by way of defence believes, on reasonable grounds, that the person can not otherwise preserve the person defended from death or grievous bodily harm, it is lawful for the person to use any such force to the assailant as is necessary for defence, even though such force may cause death or grievous bodily harm.

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ian
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #257 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:51pm
 
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:36pm:
There are clear rules as to how police officers can engage with deadly force.... in self-defence or in defence of others..... in this way they are the ONLY ones legally entitled to use deadly force to defend others.... but the ordinary citizen has the right to use deadly force to defend his/her own life....

If it were my children under threat of life....

Sorry Grappler, not correct.
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ian
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #258 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:55pm
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 4:22am:
ian wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:23am:
Lafayette wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 3:54pm:

No, the rest of the world doesn't. Australia calls it common law self defense. That is, when you are faced with the imminent threat of grievous bodily harm or death, you may respond by using deadly force. That is with a gun, a knife, a brick, your hands etc. That right is well established.

Murder is when you take someone's life without just cause.
No, thats rubbish. You need to be able to prove in court that you had a reasonable belief that your life was being threatened,. You will also need to show that you did not over react to the threat. And its not well established at all. It varies state by state. I dont think you know very much about this at all.

Of course your belief that they posed an imminent threat of grievous bodily harm or death to you or another person must be reasonable. 

No, not your own personal belief. It must be the belief of a reasonable person. a paranoid junkie may very well believe they are in danger or great harm, but if a reasonable person would not believe that in a similar situation then it wont wash in court. There are no clear hard and fast rules here. The law can be quite grey in this regard.
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #259 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:56pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:42pm:
This is the codified explanation of the position in Queensland:

Quote:
CRIMINAL CODE - SECT 271
271 Self-defence against unprovoked assault

(1) When a person is unlawfully assaulted, and has not provoked the assault, it is lawful for the person to use such force to the assailant as is reasonably necessary to make effectual defence against the assault, if the force used is not intended, and is not such as is likely, to cause death or grievous bodily harm.

(2) If the nature of the assault is such as to cause reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm, and the person using force by way of defence believes, on reasonable grounds, that the person can not otherwise preserve the person defended from death or grievous bodily harm, it is lawful for the person to use any such force to the assailant as is necessary for defence, even though such force may cause death or grievous bodily harm.





It is highly recommended that you complete a law degree and have at hand a range of weapons (all locked safely away) and fighting skills, prior to be assaulted in the great state of Queensland, lest you find yourself assaulted and arrested for not being fully prepared.



The law is and always has been an ass.



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ian
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #260 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 2:00pm
 
Lafayette wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 9:42am:

What do you think is more dangerous within 5m, a person with a handgun or a knife? The answer is the knife, not the gun. I'd much rather be attacked and shot at with a handgun at that distance than attacked with a knife.

You're actually more likely to die from the knife attack than the gun attack at those ranges.

.

Not that old crock, absolute nonsense. Depends a lot on training and circumstances, regardless, close quarter knife attacks are statistically much less dangerous and have far fewer fatal outcomes than close quarter gun attacks.
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Lafayette
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #261 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 2:25pm
 
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:34pm:
Maybe this should be the subject of The Great Writing Challenge Reborn...

Does the right to bear arms ensure liberty?

Only when one follows the advice of the Founding Fathers.

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined" - Patrick Henry

Having the right to keep and bear arms is useless unless the people are willing to use those arms and are prepared to die to defend liberty.
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Lafayette
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #262 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 2:28pm
 
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:36pm:
There are clear rules as to how police officers can engage with deadly force.... in self-defence or in defence of others..... in this way they are the ONLY ones legally entitled to use deadly force to defend others.... but the ordinary citizen has the right to use deadly force to defend his/her own life....

If it were my children under threat of life....

The police aren't the only ones allowed to use deadly force in defence of others. To suggest this is idiotic.
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #263 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 2:33pm
 
Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:34pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 12:29pm:
Lafayette wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 1:45pm:
longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26th, 2015 at 12:57pm:
or he could use it as a bottle opener...

bloody idiot.



I will bet you simply cannot frame a defence of liberty WITHOUT bringing in guns.

you up for it twit?

I don't even understand your question. Have you been drinking?



its simply, retard.  just define liberty and defend it without referring to guns.

I'm tipping you cant do it.


Maybe this should be the subject of The Great Writing Challenge Reborn...

Does the right to bear arms ensure liberty?


Clearly and demonstrably not.  There is 'liberty' (of one kind or another) in Countries where there is no right to bear arms.  In the one Country there is that right (inalienable......you are magically born with it there) ask the families of hundreds of blacks murdered by cops as a matter or routine.  In that same Country, such is the level of 'liberty' you cannot even send your kids to school confident they'll be alive after school. 

This alleged inalienable right was created in a different World by blokes who made rules for that World, one which no longer exists.
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Lafayette
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #264 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 2:39pm
 
ian wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 1:55pm:
No, not your own personal belief. It must be the belief of a reasonable person. a paranoid junkie may very well believe they are in danger or great harm, but if a reasonable person would not believe that in a similar situation then it wont wash in court. There are no clear hard and fast rules here. The law can be quite grey in this regard.

That's why I said the belief must be reasonable. Because it is the belief of a reasonable person.
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Lafayette
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #265 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 2:41pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 2:33pm:
Clearly and demonstrably not.  There is 'liberty' (of one kind or another) in Countries where there is no right to bear arms.  In the one Country there is that right (inalienable......you are magically born with it there) ask the families of hundreds of blacks murdered by cops as a matter or routine.  In that same Country, such is the level of 'liberty' you cannot even send your kids to school confident they'll be alive after school. 

This alleged inalienable right was created in a different World by blokes who made rules for that World, one which no longer exists.

African Americans were the first in this country that were the victims of gun control. They were denied their right to keep and bear arms.

As for it being a world that no longer exists. It is the same world, but people have become more ignorant of their rights and less willing to fight for them.
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #266 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 2:54pm
 
Quote:
African Americans were the first in this country that were the victims of gun control. They were denied their right to keep and bear arms.


They now have that right.......yet there are murdered by Cops every week in the Land of Liberty

Quote:
As for it being a world that no longer exists. It is the same world, but people have become more ignorant of their rights and less willing to fight for them.


Sure.  By way of metaphor, let's compare a photo of down town Philadelphia in July 1776 with one taken in July 2015.  Same 'world' my arse. 

I noticed your obvious avoidance of my comment about kids being (also routinely) slaughtered en mass at School in this Land of Liberty you have adopted.

Bah humbug!
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Lafayette
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #267 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 3:00pm
 

Aussie wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 2:54pm:
They now have that right.......yet there are murdered by Cops every week in the Land of Liberty

And it is a right that they very few African Americans exercise. Unfortunately they've been led to believe that non violence in the face of violence is an acceptable method of living life. Something I don't agree with.

Aussie wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 2:54pm:
Sure.  By way of metaphor, let's compare a photo of down town Philadelphia in July 1776 with one taken in July 2015.  Same 'world' my arse. 

It is the same world in that liberty is still precious and the nature of man has not changed.

Aussie wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 2:54pm:
I noticed your obvious avoidance of my comment about kids being (also routinely) slaughtered en mass at School in this Land of Liberty you have adopted.

You mean in places where firearms are banned? Surely if banning firearms in a certain place were a good idea to stop gun violence, then gun violence wouldn't occur where it was illegal, right?
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #268 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 3:12pm
 
Quote:
You mean in places where firearms are banned? Surely if banning firearms in a certain place were a good idea to stop gun violence, then gun violence wouldn't occur where it was illegal, right?


So, to adopt the John Oliver (obvious) argument (see the video above)..........we should never even attempt by Law to restrict the sale of drugs?  It's just not worth the effort.

"Unless we can get rid of 100% of crime by limiting access to guns, it is not worth doing it?"

Yeas?
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Lafayette
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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #269 - Dec 27th, 2015 at 3:17pm
 
Aussie wrote on Dec 27th, 2015 at 3:12pm:
Quote:
You mean in places where firearms are banned? Surely if banning firearms in a certain place were a good idea to stop gun violence, then gun violence wouldn't occur where it was illegal, right?


So, to adopt the John Oliver (obvious) argument (see the video above)..........we should never even attempt by Law to restrict the sale of drugs?  It's just not worth the effort.

"Unless we can get rid of 100% of crime by limiting access to guns, it is not worth doing it?"

Yeas?

I don't believe we should restrict the sale or use of drugs at all in the first place. If you're an adult then you have the right to do as you please so long as you don't infringe on the rights of another.

The point I made is that criminals by their virtue don't give a damn about what the law says, so banning firearms won't stop criminals from using them, it only prevents innocent people who have no inclination of breaking the law from owning them.

With regards to school shootings and other mass shootings. It's a mental illness issue and the overprescription of psychotropic drugs should be addressed. That's why there are many more mass shootings in the US than there is in Switzerland, yet the Swiss are armed very well.
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