Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

freediver

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #240 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 8:55am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 9:14am:

freediver wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:52am:

No need to presume Lafayette. Contrary to what you dribbled earlier (ie, "criminals don't care and will stay armed") our gun laws do actually disarm criminals.

Can you acknowledge this, or are you only programmed to parrot a slightly different version of the propaganda? I don't think I have ever succeeded in getting a gun nut to acknowledge this point.

Again, even if it does, it doesn't lower violent crime altogether which means that people who are the victims of violent crime are far less likely to be able to defend themselves against criminals that are either armed with even knives or other weapons or unarmed and in groups.

Ultimately it puts the advantage in the hands of criminals who don't give a damn about the law.

As for criminals no longer being armed as a result of gun laws, look at Mexico. The cartels are armed with very heavy weaponry despite the fact that it is illegal to own such firearms. Heck, even in Australia where it is its own continent, surrounded by water with no land borders with any other nation and very strong border controls illegal firearms still get into the country and into the hands of criminals.

Again you are wrong Lafayette. We read plenty of stories in the newspaper about junkies trying to hold up a servo with a syringe or a knife and getting chased off by the guy behind the counter. Or they simply refuse to give them the money.

In the US, the junkie would have a gun and everyone in the store would be shitting themselves hoping that no-one dies today.

When you respond, instead of saying "even if I am wrong," or changing the subject, try just admitting you are wrong.

Quote:

freediver wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:52am:

Also, what do you mean by Americans respecting liberty. Does liberty mean the right to bear arms?

The right to keep and bear arms is the last line of defense for liberty. Without it, the people can fall victim of tyranny.

When I was in the US in my younger days, I was once in a car with some friends, all male, and they were afraid to get out of the car in what looked to me like a very normal street, because they thought there was a significant chance of getting shot. Would you say they had the greater liberty? Do you think being afraid to walk down the street makes them less likely to hand unreasonable powers to the government?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #241 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 9:42am

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 8:55am:

Again you are wrong Lafayette. We read plenty of stories in the newspaper about junkies trying to hold up a servo with a syringe or a knife and getting chased off by the guy behind the counter. Or they simply refuse to give them the money.

In the US, the junkie would have a gun and everyone in the store would be shitting themselves hoping that no-one dies today.

When you respond, instead of saying "even if I am wrong," or changing the subject, try just admitting you are wrong.

What do you think is more dangerous within 5m, a person with a handgun or a knife? The answer is the knife, not the gun. I'd much rather be attacked and shot at with a handgun at that distance than attacked with a knife.

You're actually more likely to die from the knife attack than the gun attack at those ranges.

What you also seem to be missing is the fact that here, not only can criminals get their hands on firearms, but so can the law abiding. So as a result, many people that work in a servo are armed and have frequently been able to shoot someone committing an armed robbery against them.

So ultimately, firearms at the very least act as an equalizer. Whereas someone robbing a gas station with a knife or syringe has the upper hand.

freediver wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 8:55am:

When I was in the US in my younger days, I was once in a car with some friends, all male, and they were afraid to get out of the car in what looked to me like a very normal street, because they thought there was a significant chance of getting shot. Would you say they had the greater liberty? Do you think being afraid to walk down the street makes them less likely to hand unreasonable powers to the government?

Your personal safety is your own responsibility. If you're unprepared to carry a firearm, get the training and defend yourself then by all means, move to some place with less freedom and more safety..

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39698 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #242 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:16pm Whoop~de~doo!
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longweekend58

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #243 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:27pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:44pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 12:49pm:

its just voting twit. once or twice every three years. hardly an onerous obligation.

Just voting? People like you are exactly why I left Australia.. Voting is an incredible responsibility that citizens must carry out to help to decide the course of their nation, it is not the choice of which channel to watch.

garbage. you left so you could gratify your redneck need for guns, guns and more guns and the hope that some day you get to shoot someone or a group.

your not even tried to define liberty without referring to guns

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #244 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:29pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:45pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 12:57pm:

or he could use it as a bottle opener...

bloody idiot.

I will bet you simply cannot frame a defence of liberty WITHOUT bringing in guns.

you up for it twit?

I don't even understand your question. Have you been drinking?

its simply, retard. just define liberty and defend it without referring to guns.

I'm tipping you cant do it.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Fuzzball Gold Member Offline Posts: 6384 Australia Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #245 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:31pm
Back to top	Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "Holy Sh!t ... What a Ride!" IP Logged

longweekend58

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #246 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:33pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 3:29pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 2:41pm:

In theory...yes. In practice, there seems to be little evidence. You have seen the Australian figures, and they all go to debunk your (NRA) bullshit.

So what you are saying is that armed and trained innocent civilians won't be able to defend themselves against criminals also armed with guns or knives or a disparity of force?

the depth of the stupidity of that argument is unbelievable. you seem to think there are two quite separate groups of people who never mix and never change sides - criminals and non-criminals. You also seem to forget that all criminals were once NOT criminals. IN your idiotic world you would arm and train these people so that when they finally become criminals... they can commit crimemore effective and violently.

ever heard of escalation? each side simply gets bigger and bigger weapons... whoch is exactly what happens.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #247 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:36pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 4:14pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 4:00pm:

Rubbish. In every State, the Law on this stuff is codified by Statute.

Errrr... No.. Self Defence comes under Common Law, not Statutory Law.

you continue to be wrong. self-defence does not give you the right to shoot. you are only allowed to defend with 'reasonable force' whch does not mean the right to shoot someone that breaks into your house.

all you want to do is kill people. it drips off every word you write.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Melanias purse

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #248 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:36pm

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:33pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 3:29pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 2:41pm:

In theory...yes. In practice, there seems to be little evidence. You have seen the Australian figures, and they all go to debunk your (NRA) bullshit.

So what you are saying is that armed and trained innocent civilians won't be able to defend themselves against criminals also armed with guns or knives or a disparity of force?

the depth of the stupidity of that argument is unbelievable..

Thank God you’re back, Longy. We’ve all missed you here.

What will happen to Maria now?

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The_Barnacle Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6205 Melbourne Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #249 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:42pm Melanias purse wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:36pm: Thank God you’re back, Longy. We’ve all missed you here. What will happen to Maria now? I'm sure it's just co incidence but Maria has been strangely quiet since Longy came back
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longweekend58

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #250 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:43pm

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:36pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:33pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 3:29pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 2:41pm:

In theory...yes. In practice, there seems to be little evidence. You have seen the Australian figures, and they all go to debunk your (NRA) bullshit.

So what you are saying is that armed and trained innocent civilians won't be able to defend themselves against criminals also armed with guns or knives or a disparity of force?

the depth of the stupidity of that argument is unbelievable..

Thank God you’re back, Longy. We’ve all missed you here.

What will happen to Maria now?

shes probably have a christmas break i'd guess.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Melanias purse

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #251 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:22pm

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:43pm:

Melanias purse wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:36pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:33pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 3:29pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 2:41pm:

In theory...yes. In practice, there seems to be little evidence. You have seen the Australian figures, and they all go to debunk your (NRA) bullshit.

So what you are saying is that armed and trained innocent civilians won't be able to defend themselves against criminals also armed with guns or knives or a disparity of force?

the depth of the stupidity of that argument is unbelievable..

Thank God you’re back, Longy. We’ve all missed you here.

What will happen to Maria now?

shes probably have a christmas break i'd guess.

Yes, I imagine you’re right. She’ll be back soon, and you can finally meet each other for the first time.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #252 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:26pm

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:36pm:

you continue to be wrong. self-defence does not give you the right to shoot. you are only allowed to defend with 'reasonable force' whch does not mean the right to shoot someone that breaks into your house.

all you want to do is kill people. it drips off every word you write.

Reasonable force depends on the threat that you are facing. If you reasonably believe that you or another person is faced with imminent grievous bodily harm or death then you may use deadly force to stop it.

You also claim that all I want to do is kill people. I've had the opportunity to do so already where I could have argued it was justified because I was face to face with someone wielding a knife and within meters of me, threatening to kill me but I didn't draw my firearm and shoot them, instead I de-escalated the situation by talking to the person. Not shooting them.

That's kind of the opposite of what you are suggesting.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #253 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:34pm

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 12:29pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:45pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 12:57pm:

or he could use it as a bottle opener...

bloody idiot.

I will bet you simply cannot frame a defence of liberty WITHOUT bringing in guns.

you up for it twit?

I don't even understand your question. Have you been drinking?

its simply, retard. just define liberty and defend it without referring to guns.

I'm tipping you cant do it.

Maybe this should be the subject of The Great Writing Challenge Reborn...

Does the right to bear arms ensure liberty?

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #254 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:36pm

There are clear rules as to how police officers can engage with deadly force.... in self-defence or in defence of others..... in this way they are the ONLY ones legally entitled to use deadly force to defend others.... but the ordinary citizen has the right to use deadly force to defend his/her own life....

If it were my children under threat of life....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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