Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #225 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 5:52pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 5:34pm:

Quote:

I don't care if there is increased risk to the public

QED.

Abandon ship. We are talking to NRA Central.....and nothing will change them.

So because you are too lazy and frightened to take steps to defend your life and the life of your family I should be deprived of my right to do so?

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #226 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 6:06pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 5:52pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 5:34pm:

Quote:

I don't care if there is increased risk to the public

QED.

Abandon ship. We are talking to NRA Central.....and nothing will change them.

So because you are too lazy and frightened to take steps to defend your life and the life of your family I should be deprived of my right to do so?

Neither my life, nor that of my Family has ever been threatened. I've never heard of any event that anyone I know was ever threatened. You (NRA) are manufacturing threats to justify having an arsenal in your home, opened or concealed carry. Australia has no need of ye or your big boy talk guns.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #227 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 6:20pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 6:06pm:

Neither my life, nor that of my Family has ever been threatened. I've never heard of any event that anyone I know was ever threatened. You (NRA) are manufacturing threats to justify having an arsenal in your home, opened or concealed carry. Australia has no need of ye or your big boy talk guns.

Oh that is so wonderful, so based on your anecdotal experience, Australia must have no violent crime at all then, right?

Just because it hasn't happened to you it doesn't mean it won't. People in the lower end of the socio economic scale, particularly males under 30 are much more likely to be the victim of violent crime.

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Aussie

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #228 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 6:50pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 6:20pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 6:06pm:

Neither my life, nor that of my Family has ever been threatened. I've never heard of any event that anyone I know was ever threatened. You (NRA) are manufacturing threats to justify having an arsenal in your home, opened or concealed carry. Australia has no need of ye or your big boy talk guns.

Oh that is so wonderful, so based on your anecdotal experience, Australia must have no violent crime at all then, right?

Just because it hasn't happened to you it doesn't mean it won't. People in the lower end of the socio economic scale, particularly males under 30 are much more likely to be the victim of violent crime.

You must have seen this. The NRA bloke was just fantastic!

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #229 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:37pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 6:50pm:

You must have seen this. The NRA bloke was just fantastic!

You mean, Philip? He's not a part of the NRA. He's a part of the VCDL. I know him. Great guy. He was talking about the militarization of police being a danger as they then become a standing army that acts on behalf of the government.

The Founding Fathers knew the dangers of tyranny and enshrined the right to have a militia and keep and bear arms into the US Constitution.

Even if we were to take away the right to keep and bear arms, Americans are still freer than Australians. The notion that Australia is free is a little silly when one considers that reading a magazine from Al-Qaeda can get you thrown in prison for up to 15 years, that ASIO can compel you to disclose information and denies you the right to silence, that you must prove you had a legitimate reason for visiting what the government deems a 'terrorist hotspot' taking the burden of proof of proving you are a terrorist away from the state and putting the burden on you to prove that you aren't a terrorist. Those are just a few examples.

The thing is, is that Australians don't care about tyranny so they put up with government legislation that infringes on their rights whereas Americans are far less likely to allow it and will fight to the death to prevent it. Australians don't give a damn about liberty and have never fought to defend it.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #230 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 9:48pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 4:20pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 2:57pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:58pm:

BigOl64 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 10:34am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 10:14am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 11:11pm:

There is no evidence the gun laws are responsible for decline in firearm deaths

But Baron you just admitted it:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:46pm:

We bought back 640,000 shotguns and rimfires for around a billion dollars to reduce our firearm homicides by 15-30 a year.

And we have replaced every single one of them since, with a continued reduction in gun deaths.

So how does that happen, increase in guns and a decrease in gun deaths.

Must be magic, because the hysteria states more guns = more death when that is patently untrue.

Sounds like BS to me bigol.

Can you show me any data that indicates there are more guns in Australia now than just after the buyback?

I wish geniuses would learn to google instead of demanding other people do it for you. Being an ignorant and petulant adult is no way to go through life.

A study has found Australians now own as many guns as they did at the time of the Port Arthur shootings in 1996.

More than 1 million guns were destroyed in the aftermath of the massacre, but research shows Australians have restocked over the past 10 years, importing more than 1 million firearms.

Despite that, the number of gun-related deaths has halved since the gun buyback.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-01-14/australians-own-as-many-guns-as-in-1996/44...

But feel free to remain a hysterical little b1tch if that suits your personality

No need to be rude.

The study is misleading, as the author himself pointed out:

Quote:

But Alpers tells Crikey population should be factored into the numbers.

Importantly, guns per household is much lower today. Thats the first point. The second point is that you have to look at the type of weapons in circulation today compared to pre-1997: around 1 million automatic and semi-automatic guns were handed in, and these guns were replaced with single shot guns. Thus the overall firepower in circulation today is a lot less.

Philip Alpers is not a credible source, he never enrolled in University and did drugs by day and partied at night, how can he call himself a professor when he never enrolled in a University?
Mr Alpers tried his gun grabbing in New Zealand and failed so he came here to dictate his hoplophobia to Aussies.

Military style firearms were responsible for 1.3 % of all firearm deaths between 1980 -1995 did you see the ABS data I linked?

There were 640,000 guns bought back in 1996,Mr Alpers claims another 360,00 guns were surrendered with people not taking the cash in the buyback.
Why would people surrender a firearm for free when the government was paying money for them,Mr Alpers is full of bullshit.

Look at all the photos of the gun buyback and count how many black semi autos were in the piles of guns, they stand out against the wooden stocked shotguns and rimfires.
If we look at all the photos of the buyback there were a handful of AR15's handed in and stuff all other semi autos.

Automatic guns have been banned for over 50 years, hoplophobes are short on facts and full of bullshit.

The second worst mass shooting in Australia was done with a single shot bolt action .22lr, if you can trust someone with ne of them they can be trusted with any firearm.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #231 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:10am

Aussie wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 4:41pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 4:38pm:

Aussie wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 4:30pm:

You are the expert on Australian Law. Why ask me now?

Maybe you need to trade your law degree in, mate for something else because it sounds like it's worth little more than toilet paper if you're suggesting that Self Defence isn't also Common Law. Statutory law in self defence is quite new and Common Law defences and cases still stand.

Not in Australia. You are just as dangerous as Lisa Jones by posting this crap. Every Australian State has codified (i.e. replaced) common law with Statutes.

It's defined as 'reasonable force' - now that can be very open-ended... if five Pacific Islanders invade my home armed with clubs and knives..... does 'reasonable force' dictate that I restrain them one at a time and escort them from my home... or that I take up an M-14 and a 9mm Browning and blow them away? M-14 might be a little constricted in confined spaces... how about a CAR-15 then?

Get my point?

The cops would arrive here half an hour later if that.....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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ian Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 9451	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #232 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:17am Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 6:20pm: People in the lower end of the socio economic scale, particularly males under 30 are much more likely to be the victim of violent crime. Actually they are much more likely to be the perpetrators of violent crime. So you got that wrong.
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ian

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #233 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:23am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 3:54pm:

No, the rest of the world doesn't. Australia calls it common law self defense. That is, when you are faced with the imminent threat of grievous bodily harm or death, you may respond by using deadly force. That is with a gun, a knife, a brick, your hands etc. That right is well established.

Murder is when you take someone's life without just cause.

No, thats rubbish. You need to be able to prove in court that you had a reasonable belief that your life was being threatened,. You will also need to show that you did not over react to the threat. And its not well established at all. It varies state by state. I dont think you know very much about this at all.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #234 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:29am

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:17am:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 6:20pm:

People in the lower end of the socio economic scale, particularly males under 30 are much more likely to be the victim of violent crime.

Actually they are much more likely to be the perpetrators of violent crime. So you got that wrong.

Yeeees.. but it's a two way street... when they live in a society of violence, they respond by being violent.... chicken and egg argument....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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ian

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #235 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:30am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 4:35pm:

Have you ever had to listen to a person being murdered on the other end of a phone line, begging for help against someone that is stabbing them to death and all the while you know that the police are maybe 5-10 minutes out and this person has no means to defend themselves. I have had to hear that and it is why I believe that people should have the means to defend themselves against criminals.

wow! Must have been nerve wracking, nothing beats working in a call centre, just as well you are a counter terrorism expert consultant.

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ian

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #236 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:31am

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:29am:

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:17am:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 6:20pm:

People in the lower end of the socio economic scale, particularly males under 30 are much more likely to be the victim of violent crime.

Actually they are much more likely to be the perpetrators of violent crime. So you got that wrong.

Yeeees.. but it's a two way street... when they live in a society of violence, they respond by being violent.... chicken and egg argument....

of course. just making a point.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #237 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:20am

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:17am:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 6:20pm:

People in the lower end of the socio economic scale, particularly males under 30 are much more likely to be the victim of violent crime.

Actually they are much more likely to be the perpetrators of violent crime. So you got that wrong.

And also the victims.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #238 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:22am

ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:23am:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 3:54pm:

No, the rest of the world doesn't. Australia calls it common law self defense. That is, when you are faced with the imminent threat of grievous bodily harm or death, you may respond by using deadly force. That is with a gun, a knife, a brick, your hands etc. That right is well established.

Murder is when you take someone's life without just cause.

No, thats rubbish. You need to be able to prove in court that you had a reasonable belief that your life was being threatened,. You will also need to show that you did not over react to the threat. And its not well established at all. It varies state by state. I dont think you know very much about this at all.

Of course your belief that they posed an imminent threat of grievous bodily harm or death to you or another person must be reasonable.

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Lafayette Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 316 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #239 - Dec 27^th, 2015 at 4:23am ian wrote on Dec 27^th, 2015 at 1:30am: wow! Must have been nerve wracking, nothing beats working in a call centre, just as well you are a counter terrorism expert consultant. In my younger days I worked in a police emergency call center.
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