Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Phemanderac Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3507 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #180 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 11:36am I have to laugh as well that a thread with a title about liberty is actually a vehicle for gun nuttery... Who would have guessed.
Back to top	On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day... "They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean.. IP Logged

Fuzzball

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 6382
Australia
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #181 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 12:20pm

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 11:35am:

I could agree to stop compulsory voting, however, not until there is at least two generations of realistic, non-ideologically based political education offered in this country.

We don't live in a real democracy, we have the fake one referred to as representative...

We don't have a population educated to understand that,

a) A direct model is the ONLY one that actually works for the people

b) Voting is your only way to have your say in any kind of democratic (hell, even pseudo-democratic like we have here) system.

So, in short, to not vote, your opinion is less than worthless..

I agree, but still believe 100% that compulsory voting is undemocratic........

Back to top

Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting,
"Holy Sh!t ... What a Ride!"

IP Logged

Lafayette

Senior Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 316
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #182 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 12:27pm

The only way that compulsory voting could ever seem to be okay, is if they had an option to vote for none of the politicians running. Which had drastic effects like triggering a referendum of some sort.

But forcing people to vote, for people that they feel don't represent them is ridiculous.

And don't even start on donkey votes. they are stupid and a waste of time.

Back to top

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #183 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 12:49pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:47am:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:04am:

compulsory voting is not an affront to democracy anymore than compulsory school attendence and compulsory taxes and compulsory obedience to the law. you're gonna heva to do better than that to claim it s undemocratic.

Not voting hurts your hip pocket, no?, compulsory this, compulsory that ! - You've got a twisted sense of democracy and rights longy

We've got no rights or freedoms at all as far as you're concerned, ain't that right?

its just voting twit. once or twice every three years. hardly an onerous obligation.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #184 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 12:53pm

BigOl64 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:51am:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:45am:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:04am:

Even if we did presume however that making firearms illegal lowered gun violence. I could achieve the same goals of ending road deaths by banning vehicles. I could lower stabbings by making it illegal to have a knife with a point on the end of it and instead make a dull and rounded safety tip on every knife.

The issue here is about rights. Do people have the right to defend their rights to life, liberty and justly acquired property? Yes they do. So why deny them the means to be able to do that? To deny them the means is to deny them the right.

I want a tank. I demand a tank. I want surface-to-surface missiles on my car. And I want a licence to carry an RPG in public.

all for safety you know. I will only use them to shoot baddies.

idiot

Reductio ad absurdum, the pinnacle of primary school debate, well your skills are on par with booby's now.

au contraire, mr non-voter. by extending the argunent just a little you exposes its stupidity. remember that some ARE agitating for the rights to RPGs

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #185 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 12:55pm

BigOl64 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 9:04am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 9:01am:

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:54am:

BigOl64 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:48am:

it is JUST VOTING - a simple obligation for living in rest of us cherish.

"it is JUST VOTING" ... Oh ok, nothing real serious, as long as the Libs and Libs have an iron grip on everything for ever and a day

"the democracy the rest of us cherish" ... define the "rest of us"

Replied to longweekend, not BigOl64 ... sorry BigOl, a trick I have no control over, don't know how it happens

It can be frustrating teaching longy what the definition of a human right really means. Grin

its frustrating teach the likes of you what a RESPONSIBILITy is and here is a clue: you dont get to choose what responsbilities you assume by virtue of being an australian

remember that I used to be a supporter of voluntary voting. it was people like YOU that convinced be otherwise

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #186 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 12:57pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 9:19am:

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:57am:

you are a fool. the primary function of a car is to transport people. the primary function fo a gun is to kill people.

but idiots like you only ever think about guns. you have no idea at all of what liberty actually is.

The primary purpose for a car is whatever the user decides to use it for. I could show you Al Qaeda magazines that encourage aspiring jihadis to use their vehicles as weapons to mow down innocent people.

If I did so, however I'd be breaking Australian law, because you poor sods aren't even allowed to read documents as they are considered so dangerous. Which again shows how much freedom you really have respected in Australia.

A firearm is similar in that its purpose is whatever the possessor of it intends to use it for. He could want to kill innocent people. Or, he could want to defend innocent people.

or he could use it as a bottle opener...

bloody idiot.

I will bet you simply cannot frame a defence of liberty WITHOUT bringing in guns.

you up for it twit?

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #187 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 12:58pm Phemanderac wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 11:36am: I have to laugh as well that a thread with a title about liberty is actually a vehicle for gun nuttery... Who would have guessed. pretty much anyone and everyone?
Back to top	AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..." IP Logged

Bias_2012

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 10766
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #188 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:14pm

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 11:35am:

We don't live in a real democracy, we have the fake one referred to as representative...

Yes, Lib Lab representatives .... who in 1926 suffered from Attention Deficit Disorder, poor souls, and decided to put us in chains again after all the excitement of a new constitution

This is the way it should have went ...
"If voting was democratic, politicians would be beholden to the voters, they couldn't hold a gun to our heads and force us to vote, they'd have to give us a good reason to vote. They'd have to inspire us." - by Libertarian columnist Jason Kent

Also .... " ..... this stifles political freedom and threatens the basic principles of democracy.

"People have been sentenced to jail terms for not voting. It's disgusting. It's far from being democratic. We are not a democracy if we can't vote democratically."

Here's a more appropriate way or interpreting Sect 41 of the Constitution ...

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION ACT - SECT 41
Right of electors of States

No adult person who has or acquires a right sulky Lib Lab fascist order to vote at elections for the more numerous House of the Parliament of a State shall, while the right Lib Lab fascist order continues, be prevented by any law of the Commonwealth from voting saying yes to the Lib Labs at elections for either House of the Parliament of the Commonwealth.

Back to top

Our Lives Are Governed By The Feast & Famine Variable

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #189 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:20pm

Bias_2012 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:14pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 11:35am:

We don't live in a real democracy, we have the fake one referred to as representative...

Yes, Lib Lab representatives .... who in 1926 suffered from Attention Deficit Disorder, poor souls, and decided to put us in chains again after all the excitement of a new constitution

This is the way it should have went ...
"If voting was democratic, politicians would be beholden to the voters, they couldn't hold a gun to our heads and force us to vote, they'd have to give us a good reason to vote. They'd have to inspire us." - by Libertarian columnist Jason Kent

Also .... " ..... this stifles political freedom and threatens the basic principles of democracy.

"People have been sentenced to jail terms for not voting. It's disgusting. It's far from being democratic. We are not a democracy if we can't vote democratically."

Here's a more appropriate way or interpreting Sect 41 of the Constitution ...

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION ACT - SECT 41
Right of electors of States

No adult person who has or acquires a right sulky Lib Lab fascist order to vote at elections for the more numerous House of the Parliament of a State shall, while the right Lib Lab fascist order continues, be prevented by any law of the Commonwealth from voting saying yes to the Lib Labs at elections for either House of the Parliament of the Commonwealth.

just vote you lazy sod. or perhaps make it voluntary but you lose the right to welfare as well.

let me guess... you will vote then?

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

Lafayette

Senior Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 316
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #190 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:44pm

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 12:49pm:

its just voting twit. once or twice every three years. hardly an onerous obligation.

Just voting? People like you are exactly why I left Australia.. Voting is an incredible responsibility that citizens must carry out to help to decide the course of their nation, it is not the choice of which channel to watch.

Back to top

IP Logged

Bias_2012

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 10766
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #191 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:44pm

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:20pm:

just vote you lazy sod. or perhaps make it voluntary but you lose the right to welfare as well.

It's starting to get to you, isn't it ? lol welfare !

By inference, Sect 41 implies subservience, not rights when voting is compulsory - a Lib Lab scheme to stay in power for ever and to impress the Queen that they have a handle on democracy down here

Back to top

Our Lives Are Governed By The Feast & Famine Variable

IP Logged

Lafayette Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 316 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #192 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:45pm longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 12:57pm: or he could use it as a bottle opener... bloody idiot. I will bet you simply cannot frame a defence of liberty WITHOUT bringing in guns. you up for it twit? I don't even understand your question. Have you been drinking?
Back to top	IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #193 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 1:58pm

BigOl64 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 10:34am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 10:14am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 11:11pm:

There is no evidence the gun laws are responsible for decline in firearm deaths

But Baron you just admitted it:

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:46pm:

We bought back 640,000 shotguns and rimfires for around a billion dollars to reduce our firearm homicides by 15-30 a year.

And we have replaced every single one of them since, with a continued reduction in gun deaths.

So how does that happen, increase in guns and a decrease in gun deaths.

Must be magic, because the hysteria states more guns = more death when that is patently untrue.

Sounds like BS to me bigol.

Can you show me any data that indicates there are more guns in Australia now than just after the buyback?

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #194 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 2:12pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 10:42am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 10:23am:

Since we have established that gun laws reduce gun crime and gun deaths, we get back to my original point - that your argument can only amount to saying that an increased threat to innocent people to becoming a victim of gun crime is worth the price for your liberty. Thats an ideological position that I can't really argue against - but lets not persist with the lie that putting guns in people's hands makes them more safer.

So what you're saying is that putting guns in the hands of innocent civilians who have no inclination to break the law or harm other people and giving them the training necessary to properly use a firearm to defend themselves means that they will be less safe against criminals that could be armed with guns or knives? Than them being unarmed in the first place?

If you want to put it that way - then yes.

But a more honest way to put it is simply stating the established fact that reducing the number of guns in society makes innocent people safer from gun crime.

But if you really need to rationalise this in the terms you prefer to see it in - think of it like this: giving guns to innocent people who would only ever use them to defend themselves from armed criminals, makes it a) more likely a law-abiding "innocent" person will "flip out" and resort to gun crime b) easier for a person with criminal intent, but who has no criminal record, to acquire a gun for their sinister purposes and c) more likely a criminal will be able to steal or otherwise acquire illegally the legally acquired gun of a law-abiding person.

So long story short - yes, absolutely, arming innocent law-abiding citizens so they can defend themselves against criminals, will in the end make them more vulnerable to becoming victims of gun crime.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged