Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

Baronvonrort

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20346
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #150 - Dec 25^th, 2015 at 11:11pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 8:06pm:

It is an interesting philosopgical question. Even if we take baron's lower estimate of 15 per year since the gun laws, thats juat short of 300 lives saved. For a one off payment of 1 billion.

I reckon i'd agree to cough it up

There is no evidence the gun laws are responsible for decline in firearm deaths, ABS data shows firearm deaths declining from 1980 to 1995.
The decline in our firearm deaths started in 1980 over 15 years before Howard used a scare campaign to push his hoplophobia.

We banned semi auto rifles which accounted for only 27 homicides from 1980-1995, the total firearm homicides was 813 for this period,military style semi autos were responsible for 1.3% of all firearm deaths.

Of course hoplophobes crap their pants at the thought of semi auto rilfes yet ABS data shows they were the least common type of gun for accidents,suicides and homicides,scroll to bottom of link.
www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/productsbytitle/9C85BD1298C075EACA2568A90013934...

The cost of our gun laws should include the firearms registry which has also cost over a billion who knows what the cost totals today,Canada spent 2 billion on their firearm registry before they abolished it, there are over 100 Police full time in the NSW firearms registry.
The NSW police minister was on TV saying greater than 97% of all gun crimes are done by people who are unlicensed and use unregistered firearms.

Back to top

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

IP Logged

Lafayette

Senior Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 316
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #151 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 5:39am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 8:06pm:

It is an interesting philosopgical question. Even if we take baron's lower estimate of 15 per year since the gun laws, thats juat short of 300 lives saved. For a one off payment of 1 billion.

I reckon i'd agree to cough it up

The problem is that in your vain attempt to 'protect' society, you are infringing on society's right to self defense by denying individuals the means to do so. So whilst it may make you feel all kinds of warm and fuzzy inside, you're doing exactly what my criticism of Australians is, you are acting as if you have the authority to vote away the inalienable rights of individuals present and future.

God Bless the American Founding Fathers for making it difficult to do so.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Dec 26^th, 2015 at 6:33am by Lafayette »

IP Logged

Lafayette

Senior Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 316
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #152 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:04am

Even if we did presume however that making firearms illegal lowered gun violence. I could achieve the same goals of ending road deaths by banning vehicles. I could lower stabbings by making it illegal to have a knife with a point on the end of it and instead make a dull and rounded safety tip on every knife.

The issue here is about rights. Do people have the right to defend their rights to life, liberty and justly acquired property? Yes they do. So why deny them the means to be able to do that? To deny them the means is to deny them the right.

Back to top

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #153 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:49am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 25^th, 2015 at 8:06pm:

It is an interesting philosopgical question. Even if we take baron's lower estimate of 15 per year since the gun laws, thats juat short of 300 lives saved. For a one off payment of 1 billion.

I reckon i'd agree to cough it up

it does seem like a pretty good deal and even more so when you consider the general degree of safety that has ensued as well.

It is all rather interesting to hear americans talk about liberty. In general, they mean guns and nothing more than guns.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 52487
At my desk.

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #154 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:52am

Quote:

Even if we did presume however that making firearms illegal lowered gun violence.

No need to presume Lafayette. Contrary to what you dribbled earlier (ie, "criminals don't care and will stay armed") our gun laws do actually disarm criminals.

Can you acknowledge this, or are you only programmed to parrot a slightly different version of the propaganda? I don't think I have ever succeeded in getting a gun nut to acknowledge this point.

Also, what do you mean by Americans respecting liberty. Does liberty mean the right to bear arms?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #155 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:57am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:04am:

Even if we did presume however that making firearms illegal lowered gun violence. I could achieve the same goals of ending road deaths by banning vehicles. I could lower stabbings by making it illegal to have a knife with a point on the end of it and instead make a dull and rounded safety tip on every knife.

The issue here is about rights. Do people have the right to defend their rights to life, liberty and justly acquired property? Yes they do. So why deny them the means to be able to do that? To deny them the means is to deny them the right.

you are a fool. the primary function of a car is to transport people. the primary function fo a gun is to kill people.

but idiots like you only ever think about guns. you have no idea at all of what liberty actually is.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

Fuzzball

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 6382
Australia
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #156 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:58am

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 2:53pm:

My freedom to swing my arms ends where your face begins.

No-one has the right not to be offended.

Quote:

70% of government is via regulation and other bodies than Parliaments, and therein lie many serious dangers

Democracy and liberty are not the same thing. The destruction of our freedoms can happen through entirely democratic processes.

Such as Australia's compulsive voting system, which encroaches on your freedom, and is an affront to democracy!

So long as they are created by and ultimately answerable to democratic processes, this is not necessarily a danger. For example there is sound reasoning for making the reserve bank as independent as possible, yet it was created by a democratically elected government and can be disbanded by it. If the majority of the population wanted to get rid of it, it would happen.

Back to top

Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting,
"Holy Sh!t ... What a Ride!"

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #157 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:04am

Fuzzball wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:58am:

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 2:53pm:

My freedom to swing my arms ends where your face begins.

No-one has the right not to be offended.

Quote:

70% of government is via regulation and other bodies than Parliaments, and therein lie many serious dangers

Democracy and liberty are not the same thing. The destruction of our freedoms can happen through entirely democratic processes.

Such as Australia's compulsive voting system, which encroaches on your freedom, and is an affront to democracy!

So long as they are created by and ultimately answerable to democratic processes, this is not necessarily a danger. For example there is sound reasoning for making the reserve bank as independent as possible, yet it was created by a democratically elected government and can be disbanded by it. If the majority of the population wanted to get rid of it, it would happen.

compulsory voting is not an affront to democracy anymore than compulsory school attendence and compulsory taxes and compulsory obedience to the law. you're gonna heva to do better than that to claim it s undemocratic.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

Fuzzball Gold Member Offline Posts: 6382 Australia Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #158 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:08am Yet Australia is one of the very few countries which DEMAND under pain of prosecution that its inhabitants vote, to compare that to complying with the Law of the Land, and School attendance is nonsense.
Back to top	Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, "Holy Sh!t ... What a Ride!" IP Logged

Baronvonrort

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20346
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #159 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:16am

freediver wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:52am:

No need to presume Lafayette. Contrary to what you dribbled earlier (ie, "criminals don't care and will stay armed") our gun laws do actually disarm criminals.

Convicted felons are not allowed to own guns in the USA, is that an example of their laws trying to prevent criminals from having guns.

The NSW Police minister recently said Greater than 97% of all gun crime in NSW is done by unlicensed people with unregistered firearms.

If greater than 97% of all gun crime is done by criminals how well have our laws worked in disarming criminals?

Back to top

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52487 At my desk.	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #160 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:25am So what should our target be? 50% of gun crimes being committed by innocent people? Greater use of registered firearms in gun crime?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #161 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:35am

Fuzzball wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:08am:

Yet Australia is one of the very few countries which DEMAND under pain of prosecution that its inhabitants vote, to compare that to complying with the Law of the Land, and School attendance is nonsense.

to compare voting with the angst you express is ridiculous. it is JUST VOTING - a simple obligation for living in the democracy the rest of us cherish.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #162 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:36am

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:16am:

freediver wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:52am:

No need to presume Lafayette. Contrary to what you dribbled earlier (ie, "criminals don't care and will stay armed") our gun laws do actually disarm criminals.

Convicted felons are not allowed to own guns in the USA, is that an example of their laws trying to prevent criminals from having guns.

The NSW Police minister recently said Greater than 97% of all gun crime in NSW is done by unlicensed people with unregistered firearms.

If greater than 97% of all gun crime is done by criminals how well have our laws worked in disarming criminals?

because gun crime itself has halved. basic maths.

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

longweekend58

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 45675
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #163 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:45am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 7:04am:

Even if we did presume however that making firearms illegal lowered gun violence. I could achieve the same goals of ending road deaths by banning vehicles. I could lower stabbings by making it illegal to have a knife with a point on the end of it and instead make a dull and rounded safety tip on every knife.

The issue here is about rights. Do people have the right to defend their rights to life, liberty and justly acquired property? Yes they do. So why deny them the means to be able to do that? To deny them the means is to deny them the right.

I want a tank. I demand a tank. I want surface-to-surface missiles on my car. And I want a licence to carry an RPG in public.

all for safety you know. I will only use them to shoot baddies.

idiot

Back to top

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

IP Logged

Bias_2012

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 10766
Gender: male

Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #164 - Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:47am

longweekend58 wrote on Dec 26^th, 2015 at 8:04am:

compulsory voting is not an affront to democracy anymore than compulsory school attendence and compulsory taxes and compulsory obedience to the law. you're gonna heva to do better than that to claim it s undemocratic.

Not voting hurts your hip pocket, no?, compulsory this, compulsory that ! - You've got a twisted sense of democracy and rights longy

We've got no rights or freedoms at all as far as you're concerned, ain't that right?

Back to top

Our Lives Are Governed By The Feast & Famine Variable

IP Logged