Australian Politics Forum - How do you define liberty?

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #105 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:01pm Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 3:55pm: Tell me, do you believe that the government should have a monopoly on violence? Cheap slogans don't alter the facts: tighter gun control reduces gun deaths:
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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #106 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:16pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:01pm:

Cheap slogans don't alter the facts: tighter gun control reduces gun deaths:

You are absolutely right. But since Australia banned most firearms, violent crime rates went up greatly, whilst at the same time, violent crime rates went down in the US. In fact, if I'm not mistaken violent crime rates in Australia are almost double that of the US.

All you do by banning firearms is prevent people who have no inclination to break the law from owning them, criminals don't care and will stay armed, just like they are in Australia. You take away the means for innocent people to be able to defend their lives and the lives of their families.

I wonder, have you ever listened to someone being murdered on the other end of a telephone line? Calling the police emergency number and begging to be saved, and you try and reassure them that the police are on the way but you really know that the police are at least 5-10 minutes out and this person is being killed at that moment?

Once you are in that situation, then perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from.. Because if that innocent person had a firearm, they may have been able to save their own lives or at least had a fighting chance to do so.

I live in the US and have never been victim of any violence since I've lived here. That might just be because criminals here, in general are too afraid to victimize people that they think might be able to fight back with deadly force..

Heck, I open carry a lot of the time so potential criminals know that if they try to rob me or attack me, and they pose an imminent threat of grievous bodily harm or death to me or anyone else, that I will draw my Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with 16 rounds of 124gr +P+ 9mm Gold Dots out of its holster and use deadly force against them until they stop what they are doing that makes them that threat.

As for protecting my home, I have an AKM and a Beretta 1301 Tactical shotgun. Both loaded to capacity ready to rock and roll..

As you can imagine, we have very few home invasions here in the Commonwealth of Virginia, on account of criminals not wanting to be shot.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #107 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:19pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:27pm:

As you carefully sidestep the FOUR HUNDRED mass shootings in USA this year alone plus 35,000 gun deaths.

You just love your guns and we all know why. They are long...

Mexico has effectively banned firearms yet still has massive gun violence problems with organized crime. All that has achieved is leaving innocent Mexicans unable to defend their families against people who don't give a damn about what the law states and will use those firearms to victimize innocent people.

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #108 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:24pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:16pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:01pm:

Cheap slogans don't alter the facts: tighter gun control reduces gun deaths:

You are absolutely right. But since Australia banned most firearms, violent crime rates went up greatly, whilst at the same time, violent crime rates went down in the US. In fact, if I'm not mistaken violent crime rates in Australia are almost double that of the US. RUBBISH. This is he kind of stupid figure crazy people like you quot from the NRA who themselves have been quoted as saying the actual gun death figure in USA is under 500.

All you do by banning firearms is prevent people who have no inclination to break the law from owning them, criminals don't care and will stay armed, just like they are in Australia. You take away the means for innocent people to be able to defend their lives and the lives of their families.

I wonder, have you ever listened to someone being murdered on the other end of a telephone line? Calling the police emergency number and begging to be saved, and you try and reassure them that the police are on the way but you really know that the police are at least 5-10 minutes out and this person is being killed at that moment?

Once you are in that situation, then perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from.. Because if that innocent person had a firearm, they may have been able to save their own lives or at least had a fighting chance to do so.

I live in the US and have never been victim of any violence since I've lived here. That might just be because criminals here, in general are too afraid to victimize people that they think might be able to fight back with deadly force..

Heck, I open carry a lot of the time so potential criminals know that if they try to rob me or attack me, and they pose an imminent threat of grievous bodily harm or death to me or anyone else, that I will draw my Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with 16 rounds of 124gr +P+ 9mm Gold Dots out of its holster and use deadly force against them until they stop what they are doing that makes them that threat.

As for protecting my home, I have an AKM and a Beretta 1301 Tactical shotgun. Both loaded to capacity ready to rock and roll..

As you can imagine, we have very few home invasions here in the Commonwealth of Virginia, on account of criminals not wanting to be shot.

I notice you refused to comment on the fact that teh majority of mass shootings are carried out by people with no criminal record ie NOT CRIMINALS. And notably EVERY school shooting has been carried out by a non-criminal.

Well there goes that argument!

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #109 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:25pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:19pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 4:27pm:

As you carefully sidestep the FOUR HUNDRED mass shootings in USA this year alone plus 35,000 gun deaths.

You just love your guns and we all know why. They are long...

Mexico has effectively banned firearms yet still has massive gun violence problems with organized crime. All that has achieved is leaving innocent Mexicans unable to defend their families against people who don't give a damn about what the law states and will use those firearms to victimize innocent people.

Oh yeah... a virtually lawless MExico is SUCH a great example. You could have instead compared Australia which has NEVER had a school shooting. The NRA of course claims we have had quite a number!

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mariacostel

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #110 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:27pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:16pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:01pm:

Cheap slogans don't alter the facts: tighter gun control reduces gun deaths:

You are absolutely right. But since Australia banned most firearms, violent crime rates went up greatly, whilst at the same time, violent crime rates went down in the US. In fact, if I'm not mistaken violent crime rates in Australia are almost double that of the US.

All you do by banning firearms is prevent people who have no inclination to break the law from owning them, criminals don't care and will stay armed, just like they are in Australia. You take away the means for innocent people to be able to defend their lives and the lives of their families.

I wonder, have you ever listened to someone being murdered on the other end of a telephone line? Calling the police emergency number and begging to be saved, and you try and reassure them that the police are on the way but you really know that the police are at least 5-10 minutes out and this person is being killed at that moment?

Once you are in that situation, then perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from.. Because if that innocent person had a firearm, they may have been able to save their own lives or at least had a fighting chance to do so.

I live in the US and have never been victim of any violence since I've lived here. That might just be because criminals here, in general are too afraid to victimize people that they think might be able to fight back with deadly force..

Heck, I open carry a lot of the time so potential criminals know that if they try to rob me or attack me, and they pose an imminent threat of grievous bodily harm or death to me or anyone else, that I will draw my Gen4 Glock 19 loaded with 16 rounds of 124gr +P+ 9mm Gold Dots out of its holster and use deadly force against them until they stop what they are doing that makes them that threat.

As for protecting my home, I have an AKM and a Beretta 1301 Tactical shotgun. Both loaded to capacity ready to rock and roll..

As you can imagine, we have very few home invasions here in the Commonwealth of Virginia, on account of criminals not wanting to be shot.

Got any kids? Better get ready to bury one of them. People like you tend to either shoot them yourself by accident or let them do it to you. And then there is the occasional child that will short the parent dead as well.

Know how often that happens here? NEVER.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #111 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:29pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:25pm:

Oh yeah... a virtually lawless MExico is SUCH a great example. You could have instead compared Australia which has NEVER had a school shooting. The NRA of course claims we have had quite a number!

I'm sorry to hear that the facts get in the way of your narrative. How unfortunate for you.

Actually, I might point out that Australia had a mass shooting at a school.. Monash University in fact.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #112 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:33pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:24pm:

I notice you refused to comment on the fact that teh majority of mass shootings are carried out by people with no criminal record ie NOT CRIMINALS. And notably EVERY school shooting has been carried out by a non-criminal.

Well there goes that argument!

What is a common denominator though is that these types of shootings are carried out by people that are deranged and on anti-depressants. The root cause here is not firearms, but the overprescription of psychotropic drugs that lead to suicidal behavior.

If you want to stop mass shootings at schools a few steps that need to be taken are:
1. Get the CDC to investigate and study the link between these school shootings and psychotropic drugs.
2. Stop the method of news coverage of these shootings. They are sensationalized to the extent that these deranged people see it as a means to achieve some fame, or infamy during their lives. The higher the body count, the better because they'll be famous.
3. Stop making schools gun free zones, most shootings occur in gun free zones because these deranged people know that it will be a free fire zone for them to shoot and continue shooting until they are done and either kill themselves or commit suicide by cop.

Start with those three and you'll eliminate most of these school shootings.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #113 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:36pm

mariacostel wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:27pm:

Got any kids? Better get ready to bury one of them. People like you tend to either shoot them yourself by accident or let them do it to you. And then there is the occasional child that will short the parent dead as well.

Know how often that happens here? NEVER.

A lot of children in the US have actually defended their homes from home invasions because firearms were more easily accessible. I guess you think that those children should have been unable to defend themselves and been raped and murdered instead, right?

I agree that children should not have too easy access to firearms, but if your child is responsible and trained in the safe use of the gun then I'd leave the gun out for them.

Most accidental shootings that you refer to occur because the parents are irresponsible and leave the firearms around WITHOUT first having properly taught their children firearm safety. So the child sees a mysterious aura around the firearms and wants to play with it.

Take the mystery away from it, and raise your children correctly and they won't be a problem.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #114 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:58pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:16pm:

since Australia banned most firearms, violent crime rates went up greatly

Rubbish:

http://www.aic.gov.au/dataTools/facts/vicViolentRate.html

Violent robbery went up and peaked around 2001, but has steadily gone down since. Every other violent crime category has either remained static or gone down since the buyback.

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:16pm:

if I'm not mistaken violent crime rates in Australia are almost double that of the US.

You are mistaken - per 100 000 victims, Australia is below the US on every single violent crime category:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Australia/United-States/Crime

Lafayette wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:16pm:

Once you are in that situation, then perhaps you'll see where I'm coming from.. Because if that innocent person had a firearm, they may have been able to save their own lives or at least had a fighting chance to do so.

The only place you are coming from is a place of misinformation. The statistics demonstrate pretty clearly that if you are in a place that has tight gun controls, innocent people are less likely to be threatened with a gun in the first place. Really the best that you can argue is that higher crime and especially a higher threat of gun violence against innocent victims - is a price worth paying for your idea of 'liberty'.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #115 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 6:16pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 5:58pm:

You are mistaken - per 100 000 victims, Australia is below the US on every single violent crime category:

The only place you are coming from is a place of misinformation. The statistics demonstrate pretty clearly that if you are in a place that has tight gun controls, innocent people are less likely to be threatened with a gun in the first place. Really the best that you can argue is that higher crime and especially a higher threat of gun violence against innocent victims - is a price worth paying for your idea of 'liberty'.

Could you please google something for me? I can't post links, but if you google the phrase 'Comparing international trends in recorded violent crime' and go to the AIC website where it is.. You'll find a table and an article. It indicates the violent crime rates in Australia are much higher.

It's odd because it shows a big difference from what you are saying, though both of the sets of information should be coming from the same place.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #116 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 6:42pm

I guess you are referring to this chart - which is only up to 2004:

And from the factsheet:

Quote:

The way in which crime is recorded varies across jurisdictions and over time, so comparing crime rates between countries (and, sometimes, within a country) is not necessarily an accurate indicator of differences in actual levels of crime in those countries. Similarly, crime rate trend data in a single jurisdiction are not necessarily reflective of trends in actual levels of crime. Changes in rates of recorded crime may be the result of changes in the way crime data are collected, or changes in the proportion of victims reporting criminal offences to police. The figure below shows a dramatic increase in recorded violent crime in England and Wales between 1998 and the present. Rather than indicating a sharp rise in actual violence, however, this increase is largely the direct result of major changes to the way crime data are recorded in the England and Wales. First in 1998 and then again in 2002, amendments were introduced to include a broader range of offences, to promote greater consistency, and to take a more victim-led approach where alleged offences were recorded as well as evidence-based ones. The changes affected recorded violent crimes more than property or other crimes. Incremental changes over time in recording procedures in the United States, Canada and Australia may also have influenced recorded violent crime trend data in these countries.

So we know at the very least the UK trend is misleading because the dramatic change is due to changes in the way crime was recorded. Also it is unclear which actual crimes are included in this dataset.

Whereas the link I posted provides specific crime for crime stats - and the trend is pretty clear: robberies - 81 vs 146 per 100k, violent rape 6378 vs 84767 and murder - 229 vs 12996

Of course its not all down to gun laws, but the downward trend in Australian gun crime since the buyback and gun laws (without any overall increase in any other violent crime) is rather conclusive. Thus you are really only left with one argument: that the increased risk of violent crime against innocent people is worth the price of your liberty.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lafayette

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #117 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 6:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 6:42pm:

I guess you are referring to this chart - which is only up to 2004:
And from the factsheet:

Quote:

The way in which crime is recorded varies across jurisdictions and over time, so comparing crime rates between countries (and, sometimes, within a country) is not necessarily an accurate indicator of differences in actual levels of crime in those countries. Similarly, crime rate trend data in a single jurisdiction are not necessarily reflective of trends in actual levels of crime. Changes in rates of recorded crime may be the result of changes in the way crime data are collected, or changes in the proportion of victims reporting criminal offences to police. The figure below shows a dramatic increase in recorded violent crime in England and Wales between 1998 and the present. Rather than indicating a sharp rise in actual violence, however, this increase is largely the direct result of major changes to the way crime data are recorded in the England and Wales. First in 1998 and then again in 2002, amendments were introduced to include a broader range of offences, to promote greater consistency, and to take a more victim-led approach where alleged offences were recorded as well as evidence-based ones. The changes affected recorded violent crimes more than property or other crimes. Incremental changes over time in recording procedures in the United States, Canada and Australia may also have influenced recorded violent crime trend data in these countries.

So we know at the very least the UK trend is misleading because the dramatic change is due to changes in the way crime was recorded. Also it is unclear which actual crimes are included in this dataset.

Whereas the link I posted provides specific crime for crime stats - and the trend is pretty clear: robberies - 81 vs 146 per 100k, violent rape 6378 vs 84767 and murder - 229 vs 12996

Yeah it does only go up to 2004 but take a look at the AIC website you provided. In 2004 it has a much lower violent crime rate than the AIC one that I provided.

Is that due to the way crimes are recorded?

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Baronvonrort

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Re: How do you define liberty?
Reply #118 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:29pm

Aussie wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:49pm:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:39pm:

mariacostel wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:18pm:

Because it was more than enough to recognise you as a one-toothed hokey, probably married to your sister and wishing for the old days of slavery.

Hmmm.. Well I was born in Brunswick East, in Melbourne. I am a Muslim and I actually married a beautiful African American woman.. So I guess you're wrong about all of that... Way to go, judging me before even knowing me the slightest.

mariacostel wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:18pm:

Our idea of freedom involves the ABSENCE of guns. Not how many people have been killed in mass-shootings in the last 19 years? NONE. Try telling that to the 900,000 people killed by guns in USA.

No mass shootings in Australia in the last 19 years? Let's examine that.

Wedderburn mass shooting in 2014
Hunt family murders in 2014
Hectorville Siege in 2011
Monash University mass shooting in 2002

I guess it wasn't none afterall!

As for the people killed by guns in the USA. I wonder how many of those were suicides? How many were in places where it is illegal to own a gun?

As for being free relying on the absence of guns. I mean that's a little silly don't you think.. Leaving guns only in the hands of criminals and the government, both of which will usurp your rights very quickly while you have no means to defend yourself?

But I can see why you wouldn't find guns useful in that situation. Australians don't know what rights are and see them as privileges so of course they won't fight to protect their rights and will bend over and take it in the tailpipe if the government wants to infringe on those rights.

That's why I love the US, we have protections against that.

You've been here at OzPol before spruiking this claptrap. Forget which name you used. You probably have too. Doubt you'll hear from me in this Thread now.

I don't think this guy is a sock you must be paranoid arsie.

This poster is a muslim with the usual mental gymnastics we get from muslims when it comes to Islam.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 39693 Gender:	Re: How do you define liberty? Reply #119 - Dec 23^rd, 2015 at 7:31pm I did not say he is a sock. I reckon he has posted here previously under a other tag. Big difference.
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