Australian Politics Forum - Was Islam spread by the Sword

Big Donger

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #60 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 10:30am

Now now, you two. If FD is a devout disciple of devolution, that is his right in a free society. If FD wants to regress to an atavistic, tribal and even pre-literate stage of human development, we must all respect this. FD does have rights, you know.

We may not agree with what FD has to say, but we'll fight to the death for his right to say it, no?

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bogarde73 Gold Member Offline Anti-Global & Contra Mundum Posts: 18443 Gender:	Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword Reply #61 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 10:36am You have to be careful reading thread titles. I looked at this and what I saw at first glance was: Was Islam spread by Karnal I'm sure Karnal has spread things from time to time but I doubt if it was anything as infectious as Islam
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Big Donger Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 101714	Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword Reply #62 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 12:41pm bogarde73 wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 10:36am: You have to be careful reading thread titles. I looked at this and what I saw at first glance was: Was Islam spread by Karnal Sometimes a question is just a question, Bogie.
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freediver

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #63 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 12:57pm

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Do you have evidence to suggest otherwise?

Sure. Let's start with the 800 Jews Muhammed slaughtered in one day in order to cement his control over Medina. Do you think this shortened their life expectancy? Or does that one not count because they deserved it, on account of them being scheming Jews?

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No, if Islam was spread by the sword, there wouldn't have been Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists living under Muslim empires.

Let's dumb it down a bit. Spread by the sword does not mean spread by executing every non-believer. That sort of thing makes political expansion of the empire complicated. By the way, they did ethnically cleanse large areas around Mecca of all non-Muslims.

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It wasn't unusual for the time, it was common practice amongst the Arabs to slaughter the men of a tribe and take the women and children into slavery.

Can you cite some evidence?

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Muhammad didn't judge them for their crimes. They asked for another judge and were granted that specific judge, who was a scholar of Jewish law. He judged them according to their own laws.

Sure. Just like the Nazis didn't gas the Jews and knock the gold teeth out of the corpses. It was their fellow Jews who did all that nasty work. Kind of clever of the Nazis don't you think, to maintain their moral superiority like that but still get the job done? I wonder where they got that idea from...

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So you're asserting that Muhammad treated the pagans so badly, but he didn't massacre them and now you're faulting him for that? LOL.

I am not 'faulting' him for not slaughtering them. I am just trying to point out the obvious to you.

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Again, you're just engaging in hyperbole.

So can you explain what this "no such thing as an Islamic Caliph" bit is about then?

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so I take it we're sticking with the 'driven out of Mecca' version?

Non-Muslims are banned from Mecca Gandalf. I'm sure we deserved it for some reason....

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If you could just show me the historical evidence of that actually happening, that'd be super.

What's wrong with the cases I have already presented? You seem to be confused by me presenting examples of more than one strategy at a time.

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No one really knows what FD is asserting - FD doesn't even know what FD is asserting. First it was a massacre, then it was expulsion from the city, then it was forceful conversion.

It was all of these things Gandalf. I am asserting that Islam was spread by the sword. There is no clearer case of this than Islam.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Phemanderac

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #64 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 1:12pm

This seemed relevant to throw up once again...

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 10:25am:

"To put it bluntly, as this article does, "Islam was mainly spread through Arab territorial conquests (Sudo, 4)." However, upon examination, it is not fair to make the generalization that Islam is a religion of violence, and one notices when looking at world religion on a whole, one finds that Islam was no more violent than any other religion. In fact, not only is Islam not a fundamentally violent philosophy, but we can also see that many other religions normally considered "non-violent," such as Christianity or Hinduism, have been spread through bloody conquest. Thus, in searching for a universal constant of history, we ought not fall into the "fallacy of abstractions," as Sydney J. Harris keenly puts it, and assume that because of isolated incidents and conflicts of territorial ambitions, that all religions have violent tendencies."

http://www.novelguide.com/reportessay/history/general-history/religions-spread-t...

It seems to me that neither side of this little topic is being entirely consistent with the whole truth...

Clearly, the sword was at least one instrument used to spread the word...Clearly though, ALL words have been spread, in part at least, with the sword (or its technological equivalent...)

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On the 26th of January you are all invited to celebrate little white penal day...

"They're not rules as such, more like guidelines" Pirates of the Caribbean..

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #65 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 1:20pm

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 12:57pm:

What's wrong with the cases I have already presented? You seem to be confused by me presenting examples of more than one strategy at a time.

There have been no cases FD - you mention the banu Qurayza ad-nauseum as you always do, but they were jews. Thats literally the only case you presented. But we are talking about pagans. At least be honest - you have cited no cases of pagans being slaughtered or ethnically cleansed by Muhammad. Zip, zilch.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Big Donger

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #66 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 1:28pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 1:20pm:

freediver wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 12:57pm:

What's wrong with the cases I have already presented? You seem to be confused by me presenting examples of more than one strategy at a time.

There have been no cases FD - you mention the banu Qurayza ad-nauseum as you always do, but they were jews. Thats literally the only case you presented. But we are talking about pagans. At least be honest - you have cited no cases of pagans being slaughtered or ethnically cleansed by Muhammad. Zip, zilch.

And we'll fight to the death for FD's right to do so.

Freeeedom, innit.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #67 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 2:20pm

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 1:12pm:

Clearly, the sword was at least one instrument used to spread the word...Clearly though, ALL words have been spread, in part at least, with the sword (or its technological equivalent...)

I would say more accurately that new "words" as you put it - as in religions or cultures or even philosophies - ride on the back of the existing bureaucratic structures of the society they are replacing or imposing themselves on. Alexander the Great placed Greek culture on top of the still intact Persian machinery of government, christianity spread courtesy of the efficient transport and communication infrastructure of the Roman Empire - and Islam sat on top of the remnants of two once great empires that controlled most of the middle east.

In regards to Islam, what tends to get ignored amongst the hysteria is the fact that when muslim armies captured key centres like Damascus or Jerusalem, they were not fighting to overthrow a grassroot native regime or society - in the case of these two cities, they were fighting another foreign regime, controlled from Constantinople. For the actual natives, they were simply seeing the handing over of their city from one foreign occupier to another. But still, there is no question that the treatment of the locals was significantly better under the muslims. Regarding the spread of the religion amongst the populations, the caliphate actually had an economic interest in having a large population of non-muslims, who paid the jizya tax (in lieu of the zakat tax for muslims). In return the dhimmis were afforded rights to practice their religion and were protected subjects of the state. Also they were not required to join the military. Inevitably though most of the population adopted islam through osmosis, with significant minorities of jews, christians and Zoroastrians remaining.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lafayette

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #68 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 2:42pm

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 1:12pm:

Clearly, the sword was at least one instrument used to spread the word...Clearly though, ALL words have been spread, in part at least, with the sword (or its technological equivalent...)

Generally when people talk about a religion being spread by the sword, they mean that people were forced to convert or die or leave. The Islamic empires may have spread through military conquest, as all others did. But Islam as a religion was not forced on the inhabitants of those places. Islam forbids this very unequivocally in the Qur'an.

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Big Donger

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #69 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 2:59pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 2:42pm:

Phemanderac wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 1:12pm:

Clearly, the sword was at least one instrument used to spread the word...Clearly though, ALL words have been spread, in part at least, with the sword (or its technological equivalent...)

Generally when people talk about a religion being spread by the sword, they mean that people were forced to convert or die or leave. The Islamic empires may have spread through military conquest, as all others did. But Islam as a religion was not forced on the inhabitants of those places. Islam forbids this very unequivocally in the Qur'an.

Wait until Moses and Yadda have their way with you, Lafayette. They'll give you every quote on Jihadwatch and Islamthereligionofpeace. They're quite generous that way.

Moslem == a follower of Islam.

Google: every Moslem is a latent wannabe homicidal maniac.

Merry Christmas, Lafayette.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword Reply #70 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 3:19pm Big Donger wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 2:59pm: Wait until Moses and Yadda have their way with you, Lafayette. A picnic compared to the mind-numbingly stupid circular routine FD will put him through.
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Lafayette

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #71 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 3:21pm

Big Donger wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 2:59pm:

[

Wait until Moses and Yadda have their way with you, Lafayette. They'll give you every quote on Jihadwatch and Islamthereligionofpeace. They're quite generous that way.

Moslem == a follower of Islam.

Google: every Moslem is a latent wannabe homicidal maniac.

Merry Christmas, Lafayette.

Merry Christmas to you, too. Cool

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20503 Gender:	Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword Reply #72 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:06pm Lafayette wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:22pm: I'll also remind you that the Jewish people lived longer and in more peace in the Muslim world than they did at the hands of Europeans 4000 jews were killed by muslims in a single day, Granada massacre 1066 Al Andulus. Is that an example of living longer and in peace?
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #73 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:12pm

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:38am:

No, if Islam was spread by the sword, there wouldn't have been Christians, Jews...

It wasn't unusual for the time, it was common practice amongst the Arabs to slaughter the men of a tribe and take the women and children into slavery.

Sheik Munajid said Islam was spread by the sword in the link in the OP, are we to believe your nonsense or what Sheik Munajid says?

The Persian Cyrus the Great outlawed slavery around 530BC, slavery returned to Persia after the Islamic conquest of Persia.

When $Profit Mo was telling muslims not to bury their daughters alive did Persia have a female ruler?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #74 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:42pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:12pm:

The Persian Cyrus the Great outlawed slavery around 530BC, slavery returned to Persia after the Islamic conquest of Persia.

No Baron, slavery returned to Persia during the Sassinid period - hundreds of years before Islam came along. This has been pointed out to you before.

Baronvonrort wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 4:06pm:

4000 jews were killed by muslims in a single day, Granada massacre 1066 Al Andulus.

Is that an example of living longer and in peace?

Compared to the European treatment - yes it is.

Baron did the jews fleeing the Christian conquerors of Spain find refuge in muslim lands?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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