Australian Politics Forum - Was Islam spread by the Sword

Lafayette

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #45 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:22pm

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:07pm:

The Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries or Jewish exodus from Arab countries (Hebrew: יציאת יהודים ממדינות ערב‎, Yetziat yehudim mi-medinot Arav; Arabic: هجرة اليهود من الدول العربية والإسلامية‎ hijrat al-yahūd min ad-duwal al-'Arabīyah wal-Islāmīyah) was the departure, flight, evacuation and migration, of 850,000 Jews,[1][2] primarily of Sephardi and Mizrahi background, from Arab and Muslim countries, mainly from 1948 to the early 1970s.

Consequently, the population of Israel rose from 800,000 to two million between 1948 and 1958.[169] Between 1948 and 1970, approximately 1,150,000 Jewish refugees relocated to Israel.

That's still not more than the migration from the then Soviet Union and later Former Soviet Union.

I'll also remind you that the Jewish people lived longer and in more peace in the Muslim world than they did at the hands of Europeans

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:07pm:

Yes, I am sure the slaughter of the third tribe and expulsion and attacks on the first two completely escaped their attention. After all, these were pagans, incapable of learning until they converted to Islam. Only then did they understand Muhammed's plan.

The Pagans were far worse so it's not like they would have been shocked by anything that Muhammad did.

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That's the case with all conquest. Submit, leave or die.

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:07pm:

Islam literally means submission. But the choice is implicit.

Submission to God, not to man.

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:07pm:

So despite surrendering unconditionally, they were still expecting their idols to 'save' them?

They surrendered unconditionally when their idols didn't save them.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword Reply #46 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:08pm freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 4:02pm: If you find it too confusing, I will stop providing examples for you. Good idea FD - you haven't provided any examples, but never mind, as long as you don't have to actually substantiate a claim.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #47 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:29pm

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 3:42pm:

Muhammed started his political career by getting rid of (mostly slaughtering) the three large Jewish tribes of Medina. Can you quote where Muhammed said anything about equal rights?

Why would you even bother with this line FD?

Your whole narrative, for as long as I've been here, has always been that Muhammad used deceit to win over the jews while he was weak, and then used their trust to bide his time and become more powerful - and then finally when he was powerful enough, slaughtered them as he had always intended to. With this narrative, surely you would expect Muhammad to sweet talk the jews with talk of equality and such no?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #48 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:42pm

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I'll also remind you that the Jewish people lived longer and in more peace in the Muslim world than they did at the hands of Europeans

What was the typical life expectancy?

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The Pagans were far worse so it's not like they would have been shocked by anything that Muhammad did.

So they knew it was coming, surrendered anyway, yet still expect their Gods to save them from Muhammed?

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Submission to God, not to man.

And who is God's rep that you submit to? Muhammed, or the Caliph. If this were to be taken literally, Islam would have no political component. Islam pays it mere lip service, like it does to every noble concept.

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They surrendered unconditionally when their idols didn't save them.

After ten of them died?

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Your whole narrative, for as long as I've been here, has always been that Muhammad used deceit to win over the jews while he was weak, and then used their trust to bide his time and become more powerful - and then finally when he was powerful enough, slaughtered them as he had always intended to.

Yep, that is pretty much what happened. Islam is full of peace and love from the time when Muhammed was in a position of weakness. It is full of hate and murder from the time he came to power.

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With this narrative, surely you would expect Muhammad to sweet talk the jews with talk of equality and such no?

Is this not what the various treaties were about? I expect he did exaclty this. But to a Muslim, equality does not preclude such slaughter. The devil is in the details, you see.

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freediver

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #49 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:44pm

Actually, maybe that is giving Muhammed too much credit. Muhammed "sweet talked" the Jews by telling them he is their prophet, that they actually already know this, and then threatening them if they did not come to their senses with the same fate as a previous tribe he expelled and attacked.

After all, if he talked of equality, there was always a risk his followers might choose to take him seriously.

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Lafayette

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #50 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:04pm

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:42pm:

What was the typical life expectancy?

Not any less than a Muslim's.

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:42pm:

So they knew it was coming, surrendered anyway, yet still expect their Gods to save them from Muhammed?

Contrary to what you think they probably didn't think they'd all be massacred (despite the fact that this is what they'd have done) because they knew of Muhammad's mercy. Otherwise why not fight?

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:42pm:

And who is God's rep that you submit to? Muhammed, or the Caliph. If this were to be taken literally, Islam would have no political component. Islam pays it mere lip service, like it does to every noble concept.

The Qur'an says that all mankind is God's vicegerent.

People, particularly those that wish to use Islam as a force to control people will argue that a Caliph is supposed to be the sole ruler but that is not consistent with the Qur'an nor the Sunnah.

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:42pm:

After ten of them died?

Facing an army of 10,000 Muslims and only 10 Pagans died.

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freediver

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #51 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:20pm

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Not any less than a Muslim's.

Let's just make it up as we go along, shall we?

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Contrary to what you think they probably didn't think they'd all be massacred

And they weren't. Threatening people with a sword can be far more useful than cutting their throat with it. But either way, Islam was spread by the sword.

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despite the fact that this is what they'd have done

Actually, it was highly unusual for the time. I think Gandalf managed to find one example that was sort of contemporary.

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because they knew of Muhammad's mercy

Is this a reference to his recent slaughter of an entire Jewish tribe because some considered allying themselves with the Meccans?

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Otherwise why not fight?

You really don't understand this do you? It was the same way every other military empire spread across the ancient world. Not by slaughtering everyone in their path. That just makes people fight you harder.

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The Qur'an says that all mankind is God's vicegerent.

I guess it must be ture then.

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People, particularly those that wish to use Islam as a force to control people will argue that a Caliph is supposed to be the sole ruler but that is not consistent with the Qur'an nor the Sunnah.

Even the most lopsided dictatorship is a team effort. Don't mistake this for virtue (unless you are a muslim, in which case it is compulsory).

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Facing an army of 10,000 Muslims and only 10 Pagans died.

So make up your mind. Did their idols save them or not? You are the one spinning BS about how spreading Islam by the sword is actually a demonstration of which is the one true religion.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #52 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:24pm

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 5:42pm:

So they knew it was coming, surrendered anyway, yet still expect their Gods to save them from Muhammed?

Evidently Muhammad saved them from Muhammad.

You've never really reconciled the Mecca conquest with your narrative FD - wasn't the Banu Qurayza incident supposed to herald the new norm in Muhammad's rule - rape, pillage, slaughter wherever he went? And yet here he is - an army of 10 thousand, conquers his arch enemy the Quraysh (the ones who chased him out of Mecca in the first place), secures their unconditional surrender - he could do whatever he wants with them. And what does he do? Grants mercy.

...or are we still going with the ethnic cleansing version which no one else has ever heard of?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52837 At my desk.	Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword Reply #53 - Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:30pm Quote: You've never really reconciled the Mecca conquest with your narrative FD Except of course, for my last few posts. But I suppose you mean my other narrative. Let me know what that is, and I'll do my best.
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Lafayette

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #54 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:38am

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:20pm:

Let's just make it up as we go along, shall we?

Do you have evidence to suggest otherwise?

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:20pm:

And they weren't. Threatening people with a sword can be far more useful than cutting their throat with it. But either way, Islam was spread by the sword.

No, if Islam was spread by the sword, there wouldn't have been Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists living under Muslim empires. Instead, like when Christianity spread, the non Christian inhabitants of the places conquered by Christian empires would have been killed if they didn't convert.

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:20pm:

Actually, it was highly unusual for the time. I think Gandalf managed to find one example that was sort of contemporary.

It wasn't unusual for the time, it was common practice amongst the Arabs to slaughter the men of a tribe and take the women and children into slavery.

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:20pm:

Is this a reference to his recent slaughter of an entire Jewish tribe because some considered allying themselves with the Meccans?

Muhammad didn't judge them for their crimes. They asked for another judge and were granted that specific judge, who was a scholar of Jewish law. He judged them according to their own laws.

Had Muhammad been their judge he probably would have just exiled them like he did the other two tribes.

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:20pm:

You really don't understand this do you? It was the same way every other military empire spread across the ancient world. Not by slaughtering everyone in their path. That just makes people fight you harder.

So you're asserting that Muhammad treated the pagans so badly, but he didn't massacre them and now you're faulting him for that? LOL.

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:20pm:

I guess it must be ture then.

You're talking about Islam, I'm telling you what the Qur'an says. Truth is often separate from facts.

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:20pm:

Even the most lopsided dictatorship is a team effort. Don't mistake this for virtue (unless you are a muslim, in which case it is compulsory).

Again, you're just engaging in hyperbole.

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:20pm:

So make up your mind. Did their idols save them or not? You are the one spinning BS about how spreading Islam by the sword is actually a demonstration of which is the one true religion.

Again, if Islam was spread by the sword then people would have been forced to convert to Islam or killed and we know that this isn't the case because Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists all were able to practice their religions under 'Islamic' rule. Islam spread mostly through trade.

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Big Donger

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #55 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 8:15am

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:30pm:

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You've never really reconciled the Mecca conquest with your narrative FD

Except of course, for my last few posts. But I suppose you mean my other narrative. Let me know what that is, and I'll do my best.

But, FD, your other narrative is that the Muselman has always been out to take away the Freeeeedoms of decent white people everywhere.

Always absolutely never ever.

And to reinforce this narrative, we must engage in an all-out propaganda war, smearing Muslims, rewriting history and spreading porkies at every turn. You know this. We all do.

It’s the post-2007 narrative, after you discovered Freeeedom. And as we all know, to defend Freeeeedom, we must overturn every Western value we’ve adopted since the Enlightenment: truth, justice, religious freedom, the lot.

The price of Freeeeedom is eternal vigilance, no?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #56 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 8:21am

freediver wrote on Dec 21^st, 2015 at 6:30pm:

Except of course, for my last few posts. But I suppose you mean my other narrative. Let me know what that is, and I'll do my best.

so I take it we're sticking with the 'driven out of Mecca' version?

If you could just show me the historical evidence of that actually happening, that'd be super.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #57 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 8:32am

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:38am:

freediver wrote Yesterday at 6:20pm:
You really don't understand this do you? It was the same way every other military empire spread across the ancient world. Not by slaughtering everyone in their path. That just makes people fight you harder.

So you're asserting that Muhammad treated the pagans so badly, but he didn't massacre them and now you're faulting him for that? LOL.

No one really knows what FD is asserting - FD doesn't even know what FD is asserting. First it was a massacre, then it was expulsion from the city, then it was forceful conversion. FD is actually trying to maintaining all three at once - hopping from one to another while refusing to dismiss any of them.

Or maybe FD is ready to come clean - would you like to disown any of them now FD? Given that you are now arguing about the sinister nature of Muhammad staying his hand against the Meccans - surely we can at least dismiss the massacre version yes?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Lafayette

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #58 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 9:03am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 8:32am:

Lafayette wrote on Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 7:38am:

freediver wrote Yesterday at 6:20pm:
You really don't understand this do you? It was the same way every other military empire spread across the ancient world. Not by slaughtering everyone in their path. That just makes people fight you harder.

So you're asserting that Muhammad treated the pagans so badly, but he didn't massacre them and now you're faulting him for that? LOL.

No one really knows what FD is asserting - FD doesn't even know what FD is asserting. First it was a massacre, then it was expulsion from the city, then it was forceful conversion. FD is actually trying to maintaining all three at once - hopping from one to another while refusing to dismiss any of them.

Or maybe FD is ready to come clean - would you like to disown any of them now FD? Given that you are now arguing about the sinister nature of Muhammad staying his hand against the Meccans - surely we can at least dismiss the massacre version yes?

I get the feeling that FD just hates things that he doesn't understand and learns by having an opinion, voicing that opinion and letting people show him the lack of logic and reason in it, and so he just keeps letting his opinions evolve continuing this process and maybe he'll eventually hove some more properly evolved thinking that is less based on hate and ignorance and more based on logic and reason.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #59 - Dec 22^nd, 2015 at 9:35am

FD evolving? Good heavens no - for FD the doors of ijtihad have been firmly closed since 2007. His purpose here is not to learn or understand, its to score points. As you can see, he does that by dissecting your post up and giving inane one line "replies" to isolated sentences - completely losing track of the overall argument. Thats how he's able to do things like maintaining three different version of the fate of the Meccans simultaneously.

What is interesting though is to look back on his pre-2008 posts, and you'll actually see a reasonable person saying perfectly reasonable things on the subject. Things like cautioning against tarring all muslims with the same brush, and opining that terrorism has far more to do with the politics of the middle east, than it does with anything innate in Islamic theology. But all those thoughts have been ruthlessly exorcised from post-2007 FD. Any such talk is spineless apologism that must be ruthlessly hunted down and mocked. You know he even created a thread dedicated to naming and shaming such talk - its called "spineless apologetics".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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