Australian Politics Forum - Was Islam spread by the Sword

Melanias purse Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 101502	Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword Reply #165 - Jan 4^th, 2016 at 2:25pm freediver wrote on Jan 3^rd, 2016 at 6:29pm: I said Muslims gave me the details. I did not say they gave me the broad concept. Muslims like Abu,.. Ah.
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freediver

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #166 - Jan 4^th, 2016 at 3:31pm

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I think its extremely dishonest to imply thats the only condition for emancipation

Oh dear. I hope no-one was doing that. Is that the only thing you think of it? Don't be afraid to have an opinion Gandalf.

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Its actually quite absurd the idea that slavery was a specific tool to "breed" Islam across its subject population.

Perhaps it was just a coincidence. What else was slavery useful for? Are you going to make the same argument you did with taxes and insist it was not used to impose Islam because they had a strong financial incentive to maintain it?

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As far as I know the vast majority of slaves remained non-muslim.

Makes sense. After all, that is how they became slaves in the first place. Do you just mean until they died, or their descendents also?

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Also how prevalent was sex slavery in reality?

As far as I know most slaves in Islamic lands were women. Similar to what ISIS is doing today.

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You provide not a shred of evidence of what actually happened

No-one has asked me to.

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just the "theory" that muslims were doctrinally permitted to collect sex slaves

That's what Muslims tell me. Do you disagree?

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which predictably will just illicit your usual inane retort "prove that it wasn't the case" - right?

Let's start with whether you disagree Gandalf. Or for that matter, whether you will allow yourself to have an opinion.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword Reply #167 - Jan 4^th, 2016 at 5:57pm Yes FD - I disagree until you can show me some evidence for this sex-slave breeding program to spread Islam. Does that sound reasonable? How about we start with how prevalent sex slavery actually was under the caliphate - instead of your usual "they were allowed, therefore it must have been universal".
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freediver

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #168 - Jan 4^th, 2016 at 7:21pm

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Yes FD - I disagree until you can show me some evidence for this sex-slave breeding program to spread Islam.

Do you want me to find evidence that sex slaves were treated this way, or that Muslims admitted they were using rape to spread Islam by openly giving it a politically incorrect label? Once more I cannot tell whether it is the substance or the spin you take issue with.

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Does that sound reasonable?

It sounds like meaningless waffle.

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How about we start with how prevalent sex slavery actually was under the caliphate - instead of your usual "they were allowed, therefore it must have been universal".

Normally I would start with whether it happened before getting into the prevalence of it, but if you want to go first, you can start wherever you want.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #169 - Jan 4^th, 2016 at 7:40pm

freediver wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 7:21pm:

Do you want me to find evidence that sex slaves were treated this way, or that Muslims admitted they were using rape to spread Islam by openly giving it a politically incorrect label? Once more I cannot tell whether it is the substance or the spin you take issue with.

Evidence that sex slavery was used as a tool to 'breed' Islam across the subject population.

We can start with how widespread sex slavery was in the caliphate if you like...

...or not, whatever you want FD.

freediver wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 7:21pm:

Normally I would start with whether it happened before getting into the prevalence of it, but if you want to go first, you can start wherever you want.

Ah good point FD - get me to prove your claim for you.

Did it happen on the scale you are talking about? Can you at least tell me that? And before you ask, yes I disagree that it did. Or to put it another way, yes I disagree with the "details" of your theory.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #170 - Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:37pm

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Evidence that sex slavery was used as a tool to 'breed' Islam across the subject population.

Does the use of sex slaves count as evidence? Or do we have to find a stamp on their forehead saying "only to be used as a tool to breed Islam across the subject population"?

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Did it happen on the scale you are talking about?

This is your tangent Gandalf, not mine.

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And before you ask, yes I disagree that it did.

What exactly are you disagreeing with?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #171 - Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:06pm

freediver wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:37pm:

This is your tangent Gandalf, not mine.

Is this what you mean by "details" - just my little tangents?

If sex slaves were, as I strongly suspect, limited to the caliph and a very small number of his ruling class - then it couldn't have been part of a breeding program to spread Islam. You don't consider this little consideration important?

What "details" would we actually need to make your theory believable - from a historical point of view?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #172 - Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:21pm

freediver wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:37pm:

What exactly are you disagreeing with?

Everything - but lets start with the scale - what you just described as a "tangent".

If sex slavery was not practiced on a large scale, then its a bit of a stretch to describe it as a specific program to spread Islam through breeding isn't it? How then can the issue of scale be dismissed as nothing but a tangent?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Melanias purse

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #173 - Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:41am

freediver wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:37pm:

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Evidence that sex slavery was used as a tool to 'breed' Islam across the subject population.

Does the use of sex slaves count as evidence? Or do we have to find a stamp on their forehead saying "only to be used as a tool to breed Islam across the subject population"?

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Did it happen on the scale you are talking about?

This is your tangent Gandalf, not mine.

I’m confused. I thought it was your tangent, FD. You know, to avoid having to prove Islam was spread by the sword.

You must have meant to.ask, was Islam spread by the womb?

It’s an easy mistake to make.

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« Last Edit: Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:49am by Melanias purse »

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Melanias purse

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #174 - Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:45am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 9:06pm:

What "details" would we actually need to make your theory believable - from a historical point of view?

Oh, any old post by Abu should do. It’s all in the Wiki.

If you ask nicely enough, FD will post a completely unrelated link.

Something with a formula would be good, FD.

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #175 - Jan 5^th, 2016 at 7:44am

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If sex slaves were, as I strongly suspect, limited to the caliph and a very small number of his ruling class

They must have each had quite a few then, given the large slavery industry that supplied the Caliphate and the high proportion of female victims.

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You don't consider this little consideration important?

All considerations will be considered. I have not heard this one before and am surprised you were so shy in showing it to me.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #176 - Jan 5^th, 2016 at 10:35am

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 7:44am:

They must have each had quite a few then, given the large slavery industry that supplied the Caliphate and the high proportion of female victims.

Yah thats what I'm asking FD - you can't just throw around phrases like "given the large slavery industry that supplied the caliphate" - without providing actual evidence. How large was it? Do you actually understand yet the relevance of this little "detail" in propping up your theory - or do you still dismiss it as one of my tangents?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #177 - Jan 5^th, 2016 at 10:44am

Melanias purse wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 1:41am:

freediver wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 8:37pm:

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Evidence that sex slavery was used as a tool to 'breed' Islam across the subject population.

Does the use of sex slaves count as evidence? Or do we have to find a stamp on their forehead saying "only to be used as a tool to breed Islam across the subject population"?

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Did it happen on the scale you are talking about?

This is your tangent Gandalf, not mine.

I’m confused. I thought it was your tangent, FD. You know, to avoid having to prove Islam was spread by the sword.

You must have meant to.ask, was Islam spread by the womb?

It’s an easy mistake to make.

- this.

Poor FD - I wonder if he regrets saying that "what the caliphate did" is what "most people" think of when talking about spreading religion by the sword - when all he wanted to talk about was what Muhammad did. So he then had to scramble for something else - since the actual caliphate policies of granting the religious freedoms of non-muslims kinda doesn't quite fit the meme. So we get this interesting breeding program theory - the details of which apparently don't matter and can be dismissed as 'tangents' - even though FD can't come up with a shred of evidence for the program.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Melanias purse Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 101502	Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword Reply #178 - Jan 5^th, 2016 at 4:59pm Let’s just say FD’s not having much luck. Maybe Yadda will drop in to offer some kind words and some food for thought.
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freediver

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Re: Was Islam spread by the Sword
Reply #179 - Jan 6^th, 2016 at 11:06am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 10:35am:

freediver wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 7:44am:

They must have each had quite a few then, given the large slavery industry that supplied the Caliphate and the high proportion of female victims.

Yah thats what I'm asking FD - you can't just throw around phrases like "given the large slavery industry that supplied the caliphate" - without providing actual evidence. How large was it? Do you actually understand yet the relevance of this little "detail" in propping up your theory - or do you still dismiss it as one of my tangents?

Gandalf this is hardly the first discussion we have had on Islamic slavery. Here is a good starting point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Slavery_in_the_Muslim_World

Two rough estimates by scholars of the number of slaves held over twelve centuries in Muslim lands are 11.5 million and 14 million.

Among black slaves, there were roughly two females to every one male.

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If sex slaves were, as I strongly suspect, limited to the caliph and a very small number of his ruling class

Do you have any evidence that this was limited to nobles? Why do you "strongly suspect" this?

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