Australian Politics Forum - Baden Clay wins appeal.

Aussie

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #960 - Jan 17^th, 2016 at 3:20pm

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COMMENT from Red: Do you find the description of Gerard Baden-Clay interesting in this article. He is described as being 'Cool as a cucumber'. dressed immaculately. Is this the description of a man whose wife has gone missing in mysterious circumstances. Or is this the description of how a Sociopath could pull this off.

Is it?

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Also you will note the detail of how the Insurance Policy for $967,000 in Alison's name, came into being and how Gerard Baden-Clay was instrumental in it's creation. He would have had to have known what was in it to the last cent.

No......it was his Father (an insurance broker or similar) who suggested and set up the Policy. Gerrard was not 'instrumental' at all. All Gerrard had to do was sign the documents he had to sign and his Old Man looked after the rest.

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It is on record that Gerard rang the Insurance Company but they didn't discuss the Policy with him because he wasn't the holder. It would be reasonable to assume the Gerard wanted to ensure that the payments were up to date so in the event of Alison's death the Company would be liable.

'Reasonable to assume.' Tell me...when did he allegedly make that call.

Finally, after all your dramatic stuff about how the Jury never got to hear about this Policy, (Prosecutor negligence etc etc) you are now describing to us how the Jury was made very aware of its existence.

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Aussie

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #961 - Jan 17^th, 2016 at 3:39pm

red baron wrote on Jan 17^th, 2016 at 3:14pm:

Your last post, spoken like as true Lawyer. It was an oversight not to mention my source. If you go back over my thousands of posts in the past, I invariably nominate where the information came from.

Well.....you had plenty of time to correct your oversight......I left it alone for at least a day, and you made no correction. So, I have taken the point. That is closed now unless you want to battle on over it.

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Reality check Aussie, you know that those words have the ring of truth attached to them and every little bit of quicksand than erodes your ludicrous position on the outcome of this case nettles you.

No, not at all. All your cliches used in a most torturous and hyperbolic fashion take the debate nowhere. You need evidence to back up the *Primary School amateur dramatics.

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Brick by brick the pathetic result the three wise monkeys pedalled out is being eroded but do I expect the position to be changed by the High Court?

*No. In fact, the longer this discussion goes I reckon you are coming to accept (most reluctantly) that the Appeal Court got it right. You have agreed several times that there are plausible hypotheses open on the evidence which do not include an intent to kill. You have wasted a lot of time trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill about why he may have had a motive to kill. Motive does not equal intent.

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No I don't because the reputation of the Queensland Judiciary is on the line. I expect the High Court to back them and I will be amazed if the High Court reverses the status quo.

Will that be Justice? Not on your bloody life!

No Appeal Court, including the High Court convenes with an existing built in intent to vindicate the Judge/s in the Lower Court from where the appeal stems. If that were true, there would never ever ever be a successful appeal and we might as well just do away with them altogether.

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red baron

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #962 - Jan 17^th, 2016 at 3:46pm

Was the Jury made aware of the existence of the Insurance Policy Aussie, you tell me. You seem to have followed every little letter of this case.

I am aware that the Crown Prosecutor decided not to pursue a line in regard to the Policy.

I am aware that the Policy was entered in the Police reports in the trial.

Was this brought up by the Crown Prosecutor? I don't know. It SHOULD HAVE BEEN THAT'S WHY HE MURDERED HER.

However it has been stated that the Crown Prosecutor did not run a line on the Insurance Policy, so I imagine it wasn't??????????

I have corrected my oversight of source regarding Post Death Bleeding and that's it! Do what ever you bloodywell like.

My Sociopath comment...I have already spoken at length on that angle. I'm allowed to 'hypothesise' just like the Appeal Judges did.

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red baron

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #963 - Jan 17^th, 2016 at 3:57pm

You know what the big problem with Judges, Lawyers and so on? Sometimes they get so caught up in the 'legalise' of matters that they can't see their own hand in front of their faces.

This is what has happened in this case both on the Prosecution and Judgement side of things.

The Jury got it right but then the 'Legalise' side of things took over. And the Judges got it so very wrong.

What is glaringly apparent to someone in the street with a modicum of sense becomes blurred in the confines of the courtroom, where a clever lawyer can make you think that a murderer is simply a decent man who had a lot to contend with.

If you go over this saga and put all the pieces together you will find that Gerard Baden-Clay had.

Motive....Means....and Opportunity to carry out the Murder on his wife Alison.

You do not have to be a Rhodes scholar to work out that he is guilty of murder.

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #964 - Jan 17^th, 2016 at 4:00pm

red baron wrote on Jan 17^th, 2016 at 3:46pm:

Was the Jury made aware of the existence of the Insurance Policy Aussie, you tell me. You seem to have followed every little letter of this case.

Blaaaady hell!! This is like pulling teeth! You posted an extract from the Sunshine Coast Daily which was quoting the evidence. That included this (from your own post!):

Quote:

NIGEL Baden-Clay told his son's murder trial how he was the one who set up a life insurance policy for his daughter-in-law - the person his son is accused of murdering.

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I am aware that the Crown Prosecutor decided not to pursue a line in regard to the Policy.

I am aware that the Policy was entered in the Police reports in the trial.

Was this brought up by the Crown Prosecutor? I don't know. It SHOULD HAVE BEEN THAT'S WHY HE MURDERED HER.

The Prosecutor presented all the evidence concerning that Policy to the Jury. What he (correctly) did not do was attempt to argue that the existence of the Policy etc proved an intent to kill.

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However it has been stated that the Crown Prosecutor did not run a line on the Insurance Policy, so I imagine it wasn't??????????

True, He did not run your line, as if he had, he would have been shut down by the Trial Judge. That is why he did not 'run your line.'

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I have corrected my oversight of source regarding Post Death Bleeding and that's it! Do what ever you bloodywell like.

I will, with or without your permission. You've had your say, I've had mine. End.

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My Sociopath comment...I have already spoken at length on that angle. I'm allowed to 'hypothesise' just like the Appeal Judges did.

Sure, but it has to be 'plausible' ~ supported by evidence (or lack thereof) from experts before it becomes legally relevant. Not one person said he was a sociopath, including the Marriage Counsellor who would have been well placed to observe him and comment if there was anything along those lines.

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Aussie

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #965 - Jan 17^th, 2016 at 4:05pm

red baron wrote on Jan 17^th, 2016 at 3:57pm:

You know what the big problem with Judges, Lawyers and so on? Sometimes they get so caught up in the 'legalise' of matters that they can't see their own hand in front of their faces.

This is what has happened in this case both on the Prosecution and Judgement side of things.

The Jury got it right but then the 'Legalise' side of things took over. And the Judges got it so very wrong.

What is glaringly apparent to someone in the street with a modicum of sense becomes blurred in the confines of the courtroom, where a clever lawyer can make you think that a murderer is simply a decent man who had a lot to contend with.

If you go over this saga and put all the pieces together you will find that Gerard Baden-Clay had.

Motive....Means....and Opportunity to carry out the Murder on his wife Alison.

You do not have to be a Rhodes scholar to work out that he is guilty of murder.

Sure, he could be. However, proof beyond reasonable doubt on intent to kill was just not there.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #966 - Jan 17^th, 2016 at 4:27pm

red baron wrote on Jan 17^th, 2016 at 3:57pm:

You know what the big problem with Judges, Lawyers and so on? Sometimes they get so caught up in the 'legalise' of matters that they can't see their own hand in front of their faces.

This is what has happened in this case both on the Prosecution and Judgement side of things.

The Jury got it right but then the 'Legalise' side of things took over. And the Judges got it so very wrong.

What is glaringly apparent to someone in the street with a modicum of sense becomes blurred in the confines of the courtroom, where a clever lawyer can make you think that a murderer is simply a decent man who had a lot to contend with.

If you go over this saga and put all the pieces together you will find that Gerard Baden-Clay had.

Motive....Means....and Opportunity to carry out the Murder on his wife Alison.

Yep.

It doesn't prove his guilt, though.

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red baron Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10204 Blue Mountains Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #967 - Jan 17^th, 2016 at 4:59pm Hey Gregg I see the sucker fish is still in the water. Aussie provide the 'legalise', you provide the sideshow
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red baron

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #968 - Jan 17^th, 2016 at 5:08pm

Aussie we have 'been there and back again' as Froddo said in Lord of the Rings.

One thing is clear, you will never see that Gerard is guilty based on the case brought against him.

I believe that the case brought against him has been an 'abortion' with the main motive against him, that his GREED for the benefit of Alison Baden-Clay's Life Insurance Policy being the main motive that he murdered her.

I also believe that the Crown Prosecutor was grossly Negligent in not making the Life Insurance Policy THE motivation for Gerard to Murder his wife.

It was glossed over, thereby ruining the Prosecution Case, even though the very sound Jury saw enough to find him guilty of Murder.

However, when it came to the Appeal, it became apparent just how sorely the Crown missed out in not pursuing this line in its case.

Therein lies the difference between us Aussie..you the Lawyer...me the Cop.

Serious evidence would need to come to hand to change my mind and I don't believe it will, Gerard Baden-Clay Murdered his wife.

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Aussie

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #969 - Jan 17^th, 2016 at 5:45pm

red baron wrote on Jan 17^th, 2016 at 5:08pm:

Aussie we have 'been there and back again' as Froddo said in Lord of the Rings.

More Hollywood cliche stuff. No-one cares what Froddo says.

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[One thing is clear, you will never see that Gerard is guilty based on the case brought against him.

Correct. In fact, I disagree with the verdict of 'guilty' of even manslaughter, but that is all over now. He has been convicted of manslaughter, so I was (legally) wrong in that view.

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I believe that the case brought against him has been an 'abortion' with the main motive against him, that his GREED for the benefit of Alison Baden-Clay's Life Insurance Policy being the main motive that he murdered her.

Yeas...we know. His 'main motive' was his 'main motive.' I do get that.

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I also believe that the Crown Prosecutor was grossly Negligent in not making the Life Insurance Policy THE motivation for Gerard to Murder his wife.

It was glossed over, thereby ruining the Prosecution Case, even though the very sound Jury saw enough to find him guilty of Murder.

No....it was not negligent at all. It was legally the only course he had.

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However, when it came to the Appeal, it became apparent just how sorely the Crown missed out in not pursuing this line in its case.

Quite the contrary ~ it vindicated the action/decision of the Prosecutor.

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Therein lies the difference between us Aussie..you the Lawyer...me the Cop.

Why weren't your Copper mates all over the Prosecutor (after all......they would have been in his ear every second during that Trial) about it. I know the answer to that. They and he knew that he would be stomped on by the Trial Judge if he/they had attempted to argue that the existence of the insurance policy was evidence of proof of intent to kill when death was caused. If you really want to drill down, I could argue that the Copper interrogators of Baden-Powell did a pathetic job interviewing him.

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Serious evidence would need to come to hand to change my mind and I don't believe it will, Gerard Baden-Clay Murdered his wife.

You are wrong. As we type, it is established that he did not murder his Wife.

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« Last Edit: Jan 17^th, 2016 at 6:14pm by Aussie »

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red baron

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #970 - Jan 17^th, 2016 at 6:17pm

No it isn't established that 'he didn't murder his wife'...The Appeal Judges brought down a Manslaughter verdict against him because they couldn't find that 'he had murdered Alison'.

Because those 3 Judges found against a Jury's decision does NOT mean that he did not Murder his wife, what it means is they could not find sufficient evidence that he had murdered her..yet they had sufficient to find that he had 'killed her' otherwise they could not, would not have found him guilty of Manslaughter.
They wouldn't have the first single clue what he did..they were left to 'hypothesising' what 'might have happened'

Yet these experts of Law still had enough in the tank to find him guilty of 'Manslaughter'.

How...how...how...how Aussie, you of the strict legal findings.

Nigel Baden-Clay writing of the Insurance Policy.

Now here is a curious one. How many people do you know who insure their wife for the loss of her life of almost one million dollars. Lucky daddy was on hand to take care of Gerard's wife's insurance needs. I am almost salivating at the thought as to, did Gerard insure his own life for the same amount of money?

I wouldn't know but 'hypothesising here' bet he didn't!

Last thing..about my Lord of the Rings analogy. You know Aussie during my times at Court and they were many, I found with most QC's that they had a thread of humour attached to them. Quite often before Court we would enjoy a little light hearted banter. Once when I was testing the replay equipment in a case involving Telephone Intercepts, I played a bit of Monty Python's 'Always Look on the bright side of life'.

Both Prosecution and Defence cracked up with laughter.

Can't see you ever doing that Aussie you are as dry as the Sahara Desert.....boringgggggggg

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red baron

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #971 - Jan 17^th, 2016 at 6:26pm

Oh Aussie and regarding how 'my copper mates' would have been all over the Prosecutor if he didn't pursue the Insurance thing if it counted.

Sometimes I wonder how many times you have actually been in Court fighting criminal matters.

If you did, you would realise that once the Crown takes over proceedings, it is 'their ball game' not the Coppers. Other than assisting the Crown and giving evidence it is the Crown who wears the big boots.

Your words 'Coppers being all over the Prosecutor' its enough to have me accuse you of impersonating a Criminal Lawyer.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 143954 Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #972 - Jan 17^th, 2016 at 6:52pm red baron wrote on Jan 17^th, 2016 at 6:17pm: No it isn't established that 'he didn't murder his wife'... Yes, it most certainly is. You just won't accept the court's decision.
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red baron Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10204 Blue Mountains Gender:	Re: Baden Clay wins appeal. Reply #973 - Jan 18^th, 2016 at 7:34am No won't because it's a Kangaroo Court decision that has overturned a Jury's sound decision that he was Guilty of Murder All that f......g 'hypothesthising' did they think they were on a quiz show?
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cods

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Re: Baden Clay wins appeal.
Reply #974 - Jan 18^th, 2016 at 7:46am

red baron wrote on Jan 18^th, 2016 at 7:34am:

No won't because it's a Kangaroo Court decision that has overturned a Jury's sound decision that he was Guilty of Murder

All that f......g 'hypothesthising' did they think they were on a quiz show?

no no dear... two of them had balls.. so they knew what they were doing...the second appeal hasnt been heard yet.. so he hasnt quite won....I am sure hes cocky enough to think he has though...

Last week, the front page of this paper stated that “The law is an ass”.

from the courier mail.. Roll Eyes

we are not alone.

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