Australian Politics Forum - Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor

polite_gandalf

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Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor
Reply #90 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 10:36am

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 10:06am:

This in turn makes those parts of the world that have not yet been conquered by the House of Islam an abode of permanent conflict (Dar al-Harb, the house of War)

This concept of the world being divided into these "houses" was concocted long after Muhammad, and has no basis whatsoever in any Islamic scripture - either Quranic or hadithic.

Your conflating of the Quranic command to struggle "in the path of Allah" with physical war and conquest has been pointed out to you before, and can be easily disproven in the succinct verse "By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace" (5:16).

Your case for an Islamic doctrinal basis for a subjugating world caliphate fails - but more importantly, your outrageous claim that the "vast majority" of muslims support this fails even more.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren

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Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor
Reply #91 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 12:51pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 10:36am:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 10:06am:

This in turn makes those parts of the world that have not yet been conquered by the House of Islam an abode of permanent conflict (Dar al-Harb, the house of War)

This concept of the world being divided into these "houses" was concocted long after Muhammad, and has no basis whatsoever in any Islamic scripture - either Quranic or hadithic.

Your conflating of the Quranic command to struggle "in the path of Allah" with physical war and conquest has been pointed out to you before, and can be easily disproven in the succinct verse "By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace" (5:16).

Your case for an Islamic doctrinal basis for a subjugating world caliphate fails - but more importantly, your outrageous claim that the "vast majority" of muslims support this fails even more.

It doesn't fail at all.
The Koran is like Newton's Third Law of Motion: for every Koranic claim there is an equal and opposite Koranic claim.

Re House of War - who 'concocted' the idea? It is traced back to Mohammed's ultimatum to the Persians and others to convert.

Calipahe:
Caliph/Caliphate
Term adopted by dynastic rulers of the Muslim world, referring to the successor to the Prophet Muhammad as the political-military ruler of Muslim community. The first four successors to that office were chosen by consensus of the Muslim community's elders and were known as leaders of the believers. After them, the caliphate became hereditary. Two principal dynasties, the Umayyads and Abbasids, dominated the caliphate until 1258 . The Mamluk sultanate kept members of the Abbasid family as titular caliphs in Cairo until the Ottoman conquest of Egypt in 1517 . Ottoman sultans were then widely recognized as caliphs until abolition of the caliphate in 1924 . The caliph's functions classically are the enforcement of law, defense and expansion of the realm of Islam, distribution of funds (booty and alms), and general supervision of government. It is not a spiritual office, but the institution was imbued with political and religious symbolism, particularly regarding the unity of the Muslim community.
http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/article/opr/t125/e400

Are you really trying to deny the unity of Muslims in an ummah which, ultimately, should come under a rightly guided successor of Mohammed??

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor
Reply #92 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 1:24pm

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 12:51pm:

Are you really trying to deny the unity of Muslims in an ummah...?

Of course not. Your confusing this with a contiguous muslim-dominated geographical entity, necessarily conquered through physical warfare is where you fail.

The "ummah" already exists - its called "the muslim community" - and stretches the entire globe. Some of it exists in muslim majority nations ruled by muslims, and some of it exists in non-muslim ruled countries. It matters not one iota - provided muslims are free to perform their worship (which ironically we have more freedom in most non-muslim countries than we do in so-called muslim countries).

The "Islamic State" in true Islam is nothing more than a state of mind - a "state" in which a community of muslims are free to carry out their worship. That is why muslims living in a place like the US or Australia have the best "Islamic state" they could ever hope for. After this, the call for a physical and subjugating "Islamic state" somewhere specific in the world is not only redundant - it is superficial, base and a wholly secular political desire.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor Reply #93 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 1:37pm "Fight, O Muslim, in the path of Allah for a wholly secular polity" - yeah, right.
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Soren

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Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor
Reply #94 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:14pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 1:24pm:

provided muslims are free to perform their worship (which ironically we have more freedom in most non-muslim countries than we do in so-called muslim countries).

The "Islamic State" in true Islam is nothing more than a state of mind - a "state" in which a community of muslims are free to carry out their worship. That is why muslims living in a place like the US or Australia have the best "Islamic state" they could ever hope for. After this, the call for a physical and subjugating "Islamic state" somewhere specific in the world is not only redundant - it is superficial, base and a wholly secular political desire.

Irony doesn't even begin to cover it. Why is it that autonomous, self-directing Muslims get Islam wrong (Religion of Peace, don't you know) in so many countries where there is NO opposition to Islam: Saudi, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Labia, Egypt, Yemen, etc, etc.

There a 1.5 billion Muslims and they have not been able to establish a single well-functioning, attractive society - so now they are saying, like you, that the secular, democratic kuffar state has always been what they wanted all along. Very well, the West has given Muslims countless opportunities to have democracy and it always ended in a blood-bath, most recently in Iraq and Labia but also Syria.

Just utter nonsense. You guys will say anything, no matter how self-contradictory.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 150690 Gender:	Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor Reply #95 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:20pm Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:14pm: There a 1.5 billion Muslims and they have not been able to establish a single well-functioning, attractive society ... Well-functioning and attractive, according to whom?
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor Reply #96 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:40pm greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:20pm: Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:14pm: There a 1.5 billion Muslims and they have not been able to establish a single well-functioning, attractive society ... Well-functioning and attractive, according to whom? Who would you like it to be?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor
Reply #97 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 3:30pm

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:14pm:

Why is it that autonomous, self-directing Muslims get Islam wrong (Religion of Peace, don't you know) in so many countries where there is NO opposition to Islam: Saudi, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Labia, Egypt, Yemen, etc, etc.

lol you can start by getting the most basic facts right.

There is a huge amount of opposition to Islam in most of those countries. You might have missed the little incident in Egypt where another secular dictator overthrew a democratically elected muslim government, and is currently running rampant arresting without charge anyone that even smells like an Islamist.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Melanias purse

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Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor
Reply #98 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 3:50pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 3:30pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:14pm:

Why is it that autonomous, self-directing Muslims get Islam wrong (Religion of Peace, don't you know) in so many countries where there is NO opposition to Islam: Saudi, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Syria, Labia, Egypt, Yemen, etc, etc.

lol you can start by getting the most basic facts right.

There is a huge amount of opposition to Islam in most of those countries. You might have missed the little incident in Egypt where another secular dictator overthrew a democratically elected muslim government, and is currently running rampant arresting without charge anyone that even smells like an Islamist.

Or Syria, where a secular dictator is currently engaged in a war with Islamists. Or Iraq, where a secular dictator was deposed to allow the Islamists to prevail. Or Pakistan, who's military is backed by Uncle to keep the Islamists away.

Always absolutely never ever EVER. One day, the old boy might get his basic facts right.

We live in hope, no?

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor
Reply #99 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 4:20pm

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:40pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:20pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:14pm:

There a 1.5 billion Muslims and they have not been able to establish a single well-functioning, attractive society ...

Well-functioning and attractive, according to whom?

Who would you like it to be?

The people who live in those particular societies.

Who else?

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Melanias purse

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Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor
Reply #100 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 4:46pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 4:20pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:40pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:20pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:14pm:

There a 1.5 billion Muslims and they have not been able to establish a single well-functioning, attractive society ...

Well-functioning and attractive, according to whom?

Who would you like it to be?

The people who live in those particular societies.

Who else?

I could be wrong, but I think the old boy wants those societies to be attractive to him.

He likes Danish.

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Soren

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Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor
Reply #101 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 7:17pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 4:20pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:40pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:20pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:14pm:

There a 1.5 billion Muslims and they have not been able to establish a single well-functioning, attractive society ...

Well-functioning and attractive, according to whom?

Who would you like it to be?

The people who live in those particular societies.

Who else?

You mean the ones streaming into Europe?
Pakis, Afghans, Kosovars, Syrians, Lebs, Pallos, Sudanese, Yemenis, Kuwaitis, Iranians, Egyptians, Labians, Tunisians, Gypos.

No Muslim is seeking refuge and settlement in another Muslim country. Partly because it's no improvement on his particuilar hell=hole, partly because his M<uslim brivvers wouldn't take him in anyway.
It's always up to the kuffar to to save the Musel from the other Musels.

Ummah, innit?

No. There is no solidarity in the ummah. The whole 'ummah' idea is a load of bollocks. They are tribal, fractious and will cut each others throats sooner than help each other.

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« Last Edit: Nov 30^th, 2015 at 7:23pm by Soren »

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor
Reply #102 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 7:21pm

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 7:17pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 4:20pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:40pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:20pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:14pm:

There a 1.5 billion Muslims and they have not been able to establish a single well-functioning, attractive society ...

Well-functioning and attractive, according to whom?

Who would you like it to be?

The people who live in those particular societies.

Who else?

You mean the ones streaming into Europe?

Or the ones streaming into neighbouring Muslim countries?

No.

I mean the ones living in those particular societies.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor
Reply #103 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 7:23pm

Melanias purse wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 4:46pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 4:20pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:40pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:20pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:14pm:

There a 1.5 billion Muslims and they have not been able to establish a single well-functioning, attractive society ...

Well-functioning and attractive, according to whom?

Who would you like it to be?

The people who live in those particular societies.

Who else?

I could be wrong, but I think the old boy wants those societies to be attractive to him.

He likes Danish.

The old boy thinks that everyone should be happy living on a quarter acre block, behind a white picket fence, with a 55" flat screen TV.

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Melanias purse

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Re: Call all Muslims terrorists you are a traitor
Reply #104 - Nov 30^th, 2015 at 8:01pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 7:23pm:

Melanias purse wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 4:46pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 4:20pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:40pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:20pm:

Soren wrote on Nov 30^th, 2015 at 2:14pm:

There a 1.5 billion Muslims and they have not been able to establish a single well-functioning, attractive society ...

Well-functioning and attractive, according to whom?

Who would you like it to be?

The people who live in those particular societies.

Who else?

I could be wrong, but I think the old boy wants those societies to be attractive to him.

He likes Danish.

The old boy thinks that everyone should be happy living on a quarter acre block, behind a white picket fence, with a 55" flat screen TV.

That’s right - while the other three quarters of the world make his Danish.

Miam miam, no?

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