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John_Taverner

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John 1:1
Nov 8^th, 2015 at 7:15pm

In the beginning was the word thought speech concept? collection of knowledge ?

The word λόγος or logos is usually translated as word today, but it probably was intended to mean something entirely different.

I find it interesting, because language and formalised linguistic based thinking was what marked human beings from anything that came before. I think it has a deeper meaning. Even speaking as a non-Christian, this is an example of ancient wisdom encapsulated in religion.

This article is food for thought:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/logos.html

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Postmodern Trendoid III Gold Member Offline Posts: 10266 Gender:	Re: John 1:1 Reply #1 - Nov 9^th, 2015 at 7:12pm Interesting reading.
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Yadda

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Re: John 1:1
Reply #2 - Nov 10^th, 2015 at 9:34pm

Still to finish the text at the link in the OP.

From that text.....

Quote:

"....He who possessed wisdom in the beginning of his way, before His works of old, before the earth with its depths and springs and mountains, with whom was wisdom as one brought up With Him (Proverbs 8:26-31), declared it. "It became, as it were, objective, so that He beheld it" (Job 28:27) and embodied it in His creative work. This personification, therefore, is based on the thought that wisdom is not shut up at rest in God, but is active and manifest in the world. "She standeth in the top of high places, by the way in the places of the paths. She crieth at the gates, at the entry of the city, at the coming in at the doors" (Proverbs 8:2, 3). She builds a palace and prepares a banquet, and issues a general invitation to the simple and to him that wanteth understanding (Proverbs 9:1-6). It is viewed as the one guide to salvation, comprehending all revelations of God, and as an attribute embracing and combining all His other attributes."

"...She [wisdom] builds a palace and prepares a banquet, and issues a general invitation to the simple and to him that wanteth understanding..."

Yes, 'she' does!

....this same 'invitation to all', is alluded to in Jesus parable; Matthew 22:1-14
....but do not overlook the warning which is plainly stated, in; Matthew 22:1-14

Also, the human mind thinks of [can only conceive of] wisdom, as an 'attribute', as being a part of character.

But in the spirit realm, wisdom is a spirit, and an entity [i believe].

Isaiah 40:1
Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

'the wilderness' is a metaphor, for the 'place' [i.e. this world] where all men presently dwell.

4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:
5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.

Isaiah 42:5
Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

'have called thee in righteousness' ...who, has the LORD called ? his priests, his people.

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
9 Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them.
10 Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.
11 Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.

Isaiah 51:4
Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people.
5 My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.
6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
7 Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; fear ye not the reproach of men, neither be ye afraid of their revilings.

Isaiah 45:22
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

It is a wonderful story, it is 'good news', to all those who love the God of righteousness, the God of creation.

It is the conclusion.

It is the 'Omega'.

It is that, which comes after the 'harvest'.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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John_Taverner

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Re: John 1:1
Reply #3 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 7:43am

Yadda wrote on Nov 10^th, 2015 at 9:34pm:

But in the spirit realm, wisdom is a spirit, and an entity [i believe].

So is Reason the evil sister of Wisdom? Tongue

“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” - Martin Luther

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Yadda

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Re: John 1:1
Reply #4 - Nov 12^th, 2015 at 10:17pm

John_Taverner wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 7:43am:

Yadda wrote on Nov 10^th, 2015 at 9:34pm:

But in the spirit realm, wisdom is a spirit, and an entity [i believe].

So is Reason the evil sister of Wisdom? Tongue

“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” - Martin Luther

“Reason is a whore....” - Martin Luther

QUESTION;
Didn't Martin Luther rely upon reason, in his justification, for his rejection of the authority and teachings, of the Roman Catholic Church ?

Google;
why did Martin Luther reject the Roman Catholic Church

Google;
Luther rejected the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church

Quote:

"Martin Luther found that in reading the Bible, his church did not follow it in many ways.

He could not find Biblical support for the people having to pay their money to get God's forgiveness.

He did not find Biblical support for many of the church's doctrines.

He nailed 95 problems with the church on a paper on the church door.

After that the Catholic church was after him to recant and repent.

He would not do so.

At one time his life was in danger, and he was hidden in a castle to save his life from the Catholics.

While hidden he translated the Bible into German, the language of the people.

After he got out, he started teaching people to read, for up to that time only the Clergy could read.

Eventually the Catholic church excommunicated him.

Many people followed him and called themselves Lutherans.

He did not want them to call themselves Lutherans, but Christians, but they did not listen.

You need to do some research, it is a wonderful story.

Up to Luther's time the world was in the Dark Ages.

When people began to read and write, as a result of Martin's efforts, the world came OUT of the Dark Ages."

Google

.

Personally i have a great affection for reason [in thought].

But in this age [in this 'modern' world], in public [i.e. 'in the open'], reason and truth seem to find only widespread rejection among most men and women.

Do you disagree, with that proposition ?

Reason and truth seem to be way, way behind, in popularity, to what we colloquially call 'political correctness' [ <---- and i'll wager that P.C. was something which also held popular sway in Martin Luther's day too ! ].

Do you disagree, with that proposition ?

p.s.
Neither reason, nor truth, are whore's. [....nor 'evil sisters'.]

.....but many, many human beings in this age, have 'sold themselves' [their own souls!], to the god of 'political correctness', it would seem.

Where are God's people ?

Are God's people, the members of Christian Churches today ?

Ezekiel 23:30
I will do these things unto thee, because thou hast gone a whoring after the heathen, and because thou art polluted with their idols.

Hosea 9:1
Rejoice not, O Israel, for joy, as other people: for thou hast gone a whoring from thy God, thou hast loved a reward upon every cornfloor.

Jeremiah 9:3
And they bend their tongues like their bow for lies: but they are not valiant for the truth upon the earth; for they proceed from evil to evil, and they know not me, saith the LORD.
...
...
6 Thine habitation is in the midst of deceit; through deceit they refuse to know me, saith the LORD.

.

Jeremiah 9:23
Thus saith the LORD, Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, let not the rich man glory in his riches:
24 But let him that glorieth glory in this, that he understandeth and knoweth me, that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness, in the earth: for in these things I delight, saith the LORD.
25 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will punish all them which are circumcised with the uncircumcised;
26 Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart.

Isaiah 1:16
Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

Jeremiah 22:3
Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in this place.

Amos 5:4
For thus saith the LORD unto the house of Israel, Seek ye me, and ye shall live:

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Lisa Jones

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Re: John 1:1
Reply #5 - Nov 13^th, 2015 at 12:31am

John_Taverner wrote on Nov 8^th, 2015 at 7:15pm:

In the beginning was the word thought speech concept? collection of knowledge ?

The word λόγος or logos is usually translated as word today, but it probably was intended to mean something entirely different.

I find it interesting, because language and formalised linguistic based thinking was what marked human beings from anything that came before. I think it has a deeper meaning. Even speaking as a non-Christian, this is an example of ancient wisdom encapsulated in religion.

This article is food for thought:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/logos.html

Thank you for initiating such a decent topic on OzPol.

I've not been able to log in lately...and I did not intend to post at all this evening.

Your topic however caught my attention and I've now read the article in your OP.

A passing observation....

Non Greek scholars/commentators seem keen to make a fuss of the fact that the Greek language (in both its ancient/modern forms) is layered and enriched by multiple levels of meaning.

Perhaps it's an amazing revelation for some. However, for those of us who are of Greek ethnicity and are fluent in Greek....it isn't.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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John_Taverner

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Re: John 1:1
Reply #6 - Nov 16^th, 2015 at 2:59pm

Yadda wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 10:17pm:

Where are God's people ?

Queensland. Wink

No, probably the ones who are treated like dirt. Syrian refugees fleeing for their lives for example. (in most cases)

A God who cares would adopt the lowliest outcasts as his people. See Psalms 140:12, also Luke 6:20-21.

OK, they might worship the Coles version of God to your Woolworths, but you probably wouldn't buy in to that.

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Yadda

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Re: John 1:1
Reply #7 - Nov 16^th, 2015 at 6:46pm

Very droll, JT. Tongue

Isaiah 48:10
Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction.

Psalms 11:4
The LORD is in his holy temple, the LORD'S throne is in heaven: his eyes behold, his eyelids try, the children of men.
5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psalms 32:1
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Our creator, God, knows, how very difficult it is, for any man [for every man], to live in the world [...and yet, to still have a heart to seek God].

.

Psalms 51:17
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Isaiah 66:2
....to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

Hint;
What does the word 'contrite' mean ?

a little more.....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1435998745/0#0

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: John 1:1
Reply #8 - Nov 16^th, 2015 at 7:14pm

Why isn't God in ['with'] Syria [Iraq, Sudan, Somalia, Egypt, Turkey, ad infinitum, ISLAMIC 'paradises' - NOT! ] ?

It does seem apparent, that those who live in Syria, do not enjoy God's 'favour'....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q60yBQG8XI

Where are God's people, you ask ?

Where are those, who God gives his favour to, today ?

It is NOT those who refer to themselves as 'Christians' [imo] !!! [Europe ??? ...the USA, Canada ? ....Australia ??? ...Queensland ? ]

Video tour through Israel.....

Israel ¡Seeing is Believing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLgdb6r0MQ4

Yeah, but i am biased, in favour of Israel. Wink

.

Isaiah 40:1
Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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issuevoter

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Re: John 1:1
Reply #9 - Jan 4^th, 2016 at 3:25pm

John_Taverner wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 7:43am:

Yadda wrote on Nov 10^th, 2015 at 9:34pm:

But in the spirit realm, wisdom is a spirit, and an entity [i believe].

So is Reason the evil sister of Wisdom? Tongue

“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” - Martin Luther

What is a "spiritual thing?"

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No political allegiance. No philosophy. No religion.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: John 1:1
Reply #10 - Jan 4^th, 2016 at 3:40pm

issuevoter wrote on Jan 4^th, 2016 at 3:25pm:

John_Taverner wrote on Nov 12^th, 2015 at 7:43am:

Yadda wrote on Nov 10^th, 2015 at 9:34pm:

But in the spirit realm, wisdom is a spirit, and an entity [i believe].

So is Reason the evil sister of Wisdom? Tongue

“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God.” - Martin Luther

What is a "spiritual thing?"

Martin Luther was referring to spiritual ie heavenly concepts/concerns.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Lisa Jones

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Re: John 1:1
Reply #11 - Jan 4^th, 2016 at 3:44pm

John_Taverner wrote on Nov 8^th, 2015 at 7:15pm:

In the beginning was the word thought speech concept? collection of knowledge ?

The word λόγος or logos is usually translated as word today, but it probably was intended to mean something entirely different.

I find it interesting, because language and formalised linguistic based thinking was what marked human beings from anything that came before. I think it has a deeper meaning. Even speaking as a non-Christian, this is an example of ancient wisdom encapsulated in religion.

This article is food for thought:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/logos.html

Ah. Just realized that you've not quoted that verse accurately John.

Please be more careful in future Tongue

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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John_Taverner Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2212 Gender:	Re: John 1:1 Reply #12 - Jan 5^th, 2016 at 10:40am Yadda wrote on Nov 16^th, 2015 at 7:14pm: Why isn't God in ['with'] Syria [Iraq, Sudan, Somalia, Egypt, Turkey, ad infinitum, ISLAMIC 'paradises' - NOT! ] ? It does seem apparent, that those who live in Syria, do not enjoy God's 'favour'.... Maybe some of them would say: Elohi, Elohi, Lema Sabaktani! Those who spoke Syriac perhaps.
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Yadda

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Re: John 1:1
Reply #13 - Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:07pm

John_Taverner wrote on Jan 5^th, 2016 at 10:40am:

Yadda wrote on Nov 16^th, 2015 at 7:14pm:

Why isn't God in ['with'] Syria [Iraq, Sudan, Somalia, Egypt, Turkey, ad infinitum, ISLAMIC 'paradises' - NOT! ] ?

It does seem apparent, that those who live in Syria, do not enjoy God's 'favour'....

Maybe some of them would say:

Elohi, Elohi, Lema Sabaktani!

Those who spoke Syriac perhaps.

What?

You are suggesting, that those who live in Syria [Iraq, Sudan, Somalia, Egypt, Turkey, et al], and do not enjoy God's 'favour', .....would still be declaring, TO GOD [i.e. the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob] that they, as moslems, ......in fighting and murdering, ....for the glory of a deity called Allah, are innocent ???

And declaring themselves to be a virtuous people, and so complaining that they deserve God's favour ?

Moslems, .....declaring that they are a virtuous people ????? !!!!!

What's new!!!!

LOL !!!!!!

Me ????

I am not worthy of God's favour.

And i do not pretend that i am.

And i do not follow a philosophy [which every moslem is enthralled by] which demands this;

"Fighting [against disbelievers] is prescribed for you, and [if] ye dislike it.....Allah knoweth, and ye know not."
Koran 2.216

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."
Koran 9.123

"There is for you an excellent example (to follow) in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people: "We are clear of you and of whatever ye worship besides Allah: we have rejected you, and there has arisen, between us and you, enmity and hatred for ever,- unless ye believe in Allah and Him alone"....."
Koran 60:4

[many, many verses in the Koran, indicate that hostility and 'hatred for ever', towards disbelievers is the natural default condition of a good [i.e. obedient, devout] moslem]

and then ISLAM declares this;

"Ye [moslems] are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind, enjoining what is right, forbidding what is wrong, and believing in Allah. If only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors."
Koran 3.110

Lying, deceit, rape, stealing, murder, assault, intimidation,

   ....are all virtuous acts,       .....so long as the recipients of such moslem 'affections' are all disbelievers ????

Because that is what ISLAMIC doctrine actually teaches!!

Its true.

And then moslems, SHOCK! SHOCK!,    ....then wonder why everything they touch, turns to sh it in their hands ?

LOL!!!!!!

.

.

Whereas, the Jewish people, and the state of Israel ??????

Google;
richard kemp IDF most moral army

Blessed,       .........BY GOD!

Numbers 22:9
And God came unto Balaam, and said, What men are these with thee?
10 And Balaam said unto God, Balak the son of Zippor, king of Moab, hath sent unto me, saying,
11 Behold, there is a people come out of Egypt, which covereth the face of the earth: come now, curse me them; peradventure I shall be able to overcome them, and drive them out.
12 And God said unto Balaam, Thou shalt not go with them; thou shalt not curse the people: for they are blessed.

The fruits, the fruits!!!!

Video tour through Israel.....

Israel ¡Seeing is Believing!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLgdb6r0MQ4

.

God bless Israel, and the Jewish people.

And God damn every wicked person.

Proverbs 28:5
Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Isaiah 40:1
Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God.
2 Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the LORD'S hand double for all her sins.
3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Joel 3:9
Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.

Zechariah 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.
2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.

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« Last Edit: Jan 5^th, 2016 at 12:22pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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John_Taverner

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Re: John 1:1
Reply #14 - Jan 5^th, 2016 at 4:12pm

What about the 200,000 Syrian Orthodox Christians who used to live in Aleppo alone? Syriac (Aramaic) is their language of Litturgy, or are you too fixated on Moslems to understand that? Roll Eyes

It''s not just Muslims, but Syriac Orthodox and Yazidis who are suffering equally as badly.

The irony is that this is the modern version of the language spoken by Christ.

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