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Is fairness a great driver of economic growth.. (Read 4376 times)
Karnal
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #45 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 12:11pm
 
Phemanderac wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 6:21am:
The propaganda that the "market" will bring fairness is entirely dishonest.


Left to itself, the "market" doesn't bring fairness, it brings monopolies. Monopolies are the greatest source of unfairness, as all freemarket theorists argue.

Monopolies produce fiefdoms and corruption, but they can also be a far more efficient way of producing goods. Why have hundreds of factories producing ball bearings, when one can do it all? This is why the "market" tends to gravitate towards monopolies, but the biggest cause is politics.

Take News Ltd. Its business model is based on dominating national news coverage. News Ltd backs political candidates and uses its newspapers and TV stations to get them elected. It then lobbies governments to skew media laws in its favour, as if such political bribery could ever be seen as "lobbying". News Ltd keeps dirt files on its political enemies. It has destroyed many politicians and public figures through tabloid sex scandals and mere allegations of corruption. A number of scandals have been prevented after back room agreements. In the UK, Tony Blair's staff and Gordon Brown have disclosed details of blackmail.

In the UK, much of the information obtained by News Ltd was gathered illegally - a massive surveillance network that was deliberately covered up by the police over many years.

It works both ways. News Ltd is the go-to source for politicians giving leaks and breaking stories. If a friendly politician doesn't use a News journalist, News gets stroppy. With its monopoly over the Fleet Street tabloids, News Ltd holds many politicians over a barrel. Those it doesn't are subject to its dirt file, its hit list. News Ltd editors like Andy Coulson boast over the number of political careers they have destroyed, and this is a huge source of power.

Rupert Murdoch is a freemarket ideologue, but in reality, he's a pragmatist. He will go with whatever political party that will further his company's interests. His son James, the new CEO, is reported to be a much bigger freemarket zealot. Where News Ltd's media monopoly will go when Rupert dies is anyone's guess.

Such monopolies are a tendency of modern capitalism - particularly in information, which requires networks and distribution chains. News Ltd has been able to dominate daily newspapers because news there is highly centralized - newspapers are produced in London and, historically, were distributed throughout England by train. This was much harder in the US, where newspapers are published in capital cities, great distances apart. All this is changing as print news moves online. Media monopolies are now much easier to run. The new media buzzword is "synergy" - different publications sharing the same stories. Local news is slowly dying out as print news gradually becomes centralized in one national location.

Monopolies are created through a combination of political favour and the capitalist tendency towards centralized production. They are what you get when the "market" rules. Capitalism is not about competition, but monopolization.

If economies were really competitive, we may well have the sort of equality of opportunity and share-ownership the freemarket utopians champion.

But we don't. The biggest freemarket ideologues own the biggest global monopolies. They only argue for competition when it's in their own interests. The Murdochs, the Koch brothers, the Russian oligarchs and Chinese princelings, are protectionists. The last thing those who run the world want is free markets.

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« Last Edit: Nov 10th, 2015 at 12:24pm by Karnal »  
 
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Pantheon
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #46 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 12:28pm
 
aquascoot wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 6:41am:
ive been to india and ive been to china.
The poor in these countries have a real reason to gripe (though they dont seem to).

I remain unconvinced that the poor in australia are being held back and trodden down.
i think its a rationalisation they use to remain in laziness mode.
ive simply seen too many people (migrants from vietnam who came here with nothing and who really pushed their kids through school), ive seen too many people succeed to believe that the poor should have success barriers.
I  really do put it down to laziness basicly.
the laziness comes first and the rationalisation comes second. people will always rationalise their behaviour to preserve their ego.

With our free education, great law and order, free libraries, very low unemployment (i mean 19 out of 20 people find a job)...with all this going for you.

If you live in australia
if you are healthy
If you are poor and are blaming the government, the economy, the boss, the "man" for holding you down.

you need to write this on a piece of paper and pin it on the bathroom mirror.

i"m a 40 yo healthy male
i live in australia
ive got nothing in the bank

I have...

messed up.

i believe in affirmations.
as long as you affirm the truth


I would have to agree.. When i went to school, there were a lot of poor asian family..kids that were being sent to school with a apple... the teachers had to buy these kids food because these family were so broke...but those kids worked a lot harder than any children i saw and the few i kept in touch with, have achieved a lot..

It just seems, that a lot of Poor Australians accept they are poor and do very little about it.. the most they do is vote labor and complain they don't get paid enough... i never saw these asian family or kids complained and they eventually made it to middle class.

I fully agree that in 95% of the case where mental illness or drug abuse isn't involved there is nothing holding the poor back from succeeding..
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #47 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 12:29pm
 
Karnal wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 4:15pm:
Sun Tzu wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 1:13pm:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:17am:
Is fairness and equality a great driver of economic growth.. I'm honestly not too sure..

If you do explain why?


Greed is the only driver of economic growth.


No, Sun Tzu, a growing population and an increase in productivity are the central factors in economic growth.

Greed is a marginal motivation. The big drivers in the economy are still food production, energy and construction. As a consumer, you can only eat, do and dwell so much. Economics is about the distribution of these things.

Financial services and intellectual property are different, but they are equally finite. One person on one income can only save so much money, or consume so much of a patented product like pharmaceuticals. The greed factor - marketing - is about turning more and more people onto such products, or about finding new uses for old products. Most growth in new drug patent applications is about finding new uses for existing drugs. Most growth in financial products is about poaching existing customers from other banks or hedge funds.

And so the world turns. The only real growth is in population, which increases demand.


How much of our economy do you think is based on food production?

Do you think population growth is driving China's boom?

What do you think happened to European economies in the middle ages following great plagues that reduced the population?
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #48 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 12:33pm
 
Karnal wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 11:20am:
aquascoot wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 5:49am:
Karnal wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 8:08pm:
All free enterprise theories argue that trade brings fairness, Aquascoot. There is no ideological division between the objectives of economic theorists, from neo-liberal free-traders to Keynesian or even communist economic policies - ALL have fairness as an economic objective.

There is not one economic school of thought that advocates a divide between rich and poor. ALL economic thinkers, from Adam Smith to Karl Marx, have equality as an end, or a foundational principle, of their ideas.

This, essentially, is what the field of political-economy is all about: lifting everybody out of poverty and generating prosperity for all in equal measures.

This is what modern politics is all about - in theory, if not in practice.



The theory that politics can create a society where we are all equal is an interesting theory.


While some political theories push for this, it's not the point. The point is reducing inequality.

And it's not me saying this, it's the G20, the IMF, the World Bank, and a host of institutions and global forums. The growing divide between rich and poor is a major issue globally right now, second perhaps to climate change.

The two issues, however, are interrelated. The rich and the poor produce more carbon emissions than those in between. Countries with large urban middle classes produce less CO2 than ones that don't.

Poor rural people clear rainforests and burn firewood. The rich have multiple homes and use more energy.

The middle-classes live in high density dwellings and have less kids. Cities are far more sustainable than either rural poverty or the lifestyles of the rich and famous. Energy and transport is more concentrated and efficient. Societies that cultivate their middle class produce far less CO2 emissions than ones that don't.

Reducing social inequality is not only good for economies, it's good for the environment.


Why is growing inequality is such a bad thing? Looking at countries with low inequality like pre 1980s China and 1950-1990s USSR vs High inequality states like 1950s-1990s United states, Lower inequality didnt aid or help with economy and the US was by far more environmental than the USSR..
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #49 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 12:39pm
 
Karnal wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 12:11pm:
Phemanderac wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 6:21am:
The propaganda that the "market" will bring fairness is entirely dishonest.


Left to itself, the "market" doesn't bring fairness, it brings monopolies. Monopolies are the greatest source of unfairness, as all freemarket theorists argue.

Monopolies produce fiefdoms and corruption, but they can also be a far more efficient way of producing goods. Why have hundreds of factories producing ball bearings, when one can do it all? This is why the "market" tends to gravitate towards monopolies, but the biggest cause is politics.

Take News Ltd. Its business model is based on dominating national news coverage. News Ltd backs political candidates and uses its newspapers and TV stations to get them elected. It then lobbies governments to skew media laws in its favour, as if such political bribery could ever be seen as "lobbying". News Ltd keeps dirt files on its political enemies. It has destroyed many politicians and public figures through tabloid sex scandals and mere allegations of corruption. A number of scandals have been prevented after back room agreements. In the UK, Tony Blair's staff and Gordon Brown have disclosed details of blackmail.

In the UK, much of the information obtained by News Ltd was gathered illegally - a massive surveillance network that was deliberately covered up by the police over many years.

It works both ways. News Ltd is the go-to source for politicians giving leaks and breaking stories. If a friendly politician doesn't use a News journalist, News gets stroppy. With its monopoly over the Fleet Street tabloids, News Ltd holds many politicians over a barrel. Those it doesn't are subject to its dirt file, its hit list. News Ltd editors like Andy Coulson boast over the number of political careers they have destroyed, and this is a huge source of power.

Rupert Murdoch is a freemarket ideologue, but in reality, he's a pragmatist. He will go with whatever political party that will further his company's interests. His son James, the new CEO, is reported to be a much bigger freemarket zealot. Where News Ltd's media monopoly will go when Rupert dies is anyone's guess.

Such monopolies are a tendency of modern capitalism - particularly in information, which requires networks and distribution chains. News Ltd has been able to dominate daily newspapers because news there is highly centralized - newspapers are produced in London and, historically, were distributed throughout England by train. This was much harder in the US, where newspapers are published in capital cities, great distances apart. All this is changing as print news moves online. Media monopolies are now much easier to run. The new media buzzword is "synergy" - different publications sharing the same stories. Local news is slowly dying out as print news gradually becomes centralized in one national location.

Monopolies are created through a combination of political favour and the capitalist tendency towards centralized production. They are what you get when the "market" rules. Capitalism is not about competition, but monopolization.

If economies were really competitive, we may well have the sort of equality of opportunity and share-ownership the freemarket utopians champion.

But we don't. The biggest freemarket ideologues own the biggest global monopolies. They only argue for competition when it's in their own interests. The Murdochs, the Koch brothers, the Russian oligarchs and Chinese princelings, are protectionists. The last thing those who run the world want is free markets.



I think you will find.. that Socialism is the champion of monopolization than capitalism is...No system is perfect and our current system is a very corrupt system because our once decently regulated market that kept unchecked by regulations has slowly been dismantled by both sides of the coin, But compared to the alternatives its the best we got.
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[b][center]Socialism had been tried on every continent on earth. In light of its results, it's time to question the motives of its advocates.
 
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aquascoot
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #50 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 12:52pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 12:28pm:
aquascoot wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 6:41am:
ive been to india and ive been to china.
The poor in these countries have a real reason to gripe (though they dont seem to).

I remain unconvinced that the poor in australia are being held back and trodden down.
i think its a rationalisation they use to remain in laziness mode.
ive simply seen too many people (migrants from vietnam who came here with nothing and who really pushed their kids through school), ive seen too many people succeed to believe that the poor should have success barriers.
I  really do put it down to laziness basicly.
the laziness comes first and the rationalisation comes second. people will always rationalise their behaviour to preserve their ego.

With our free education, great law and order, free libraries, very low unemployment (i mean 19 out of 20 people find a job)...with all this going for you.

If you live in australia
if you are healthy
If you are poor and are blaming the government, the economy, the boss, the "man" for holding you down.

you need to write this on a piece of paper and pin it on the bathroom mirror.

i"m a 40 yo healthy male
i live in australia
ive got nothing in the bank

I have...

messed up.

i believe in affirmations.
as long as you affirm the truth


I would have to agree.. When i went to school, there were a lot of poor asian family..kids that were being sent to school with a apple... the teachers had to buy these kids food because these family were so broke...but those kids worked a lot harder than any children i saw and the few i kept in touch with, have achieved a lot..

It just seems, that a lot of Poor Australians accept they are poor and do very little about it.. the most they do is vote labor and complain they don't get paid enough... i never saw these asian family or kids complained and they eventually made it to middle class.

I fully agree that in 95% of the case where mental illness or drug abuse isn't involved there is nothing holding the poor back from succeeding..



in a bizarre sort of way, they may be the ones on the right track.
working hard (since man crawled out of the primordial slime) has been about making your DNA , your sperm and eggs, more likely to flourish.
is it worth it to push yourself hard in modern western society.....

Its a serious question.

when you can propagate your DNA, be well fed (to the point of obesity),  numb your brain with drugs and alcohol and playstation , and be compensated for rooting and having lots of kids...it may be that its not worth it.

That, in fact, if i want to preach "self development " i should advice living the Durrrrrrrrrrrr existence.

Getting people out of the Durrrrrrr existence would be a lot easier if governments would put some evolutionary pressure on society. But they seem hell bent on keeping people stuck in Durrrrrr mode.

I'll keep swimming upstream but i fully sympathise with those who have decided to just chillax. Wink Wink
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Karnal
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #51 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 4:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 12:29pm:
Karnal wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 4:15pm:
Sun Tzu wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 1:13pm:
Pantheon wrote on Nov 8th, 2015 at 8:17am:
Is fairness and equality a great driver of economic growth.. I'm honestly not too sure..

If you do explain why?


Greed is the only driver of economic growth.


No, Sun Tzu, a growing population and an increase in productivity are the central factors in economic growth.

Greed is a marginal motivation. The big drivers in the economy are still food production, energy and construction. As a consumer, you can only eat, do and dwell so much. Economics is about the distribution of these things.

Financial services and intellectual property are different, but they are equally finite. One person on one income can only save so much money, or consume so much of a patented product like pharmaceuticals. The greed factor - marketing - is about turning more and more people onto such products, or about finding new uses for old products. Most growth in new drug patent applications is about finding new uses for existing drugs. Most growth in financial products is about poaching existing customers from other banks or hedge funds.

And so the world turns. The only real growth is in population, which increases demand.


How much of our economy do you think is based on food production?


A hell of a lot. From the patents for seeds to the chemicals for farming to transport and distribution, food is one of the biggest industries in the world.

And don't forget fast food companies like McDonalds and processed food companies like Nestle. Food and pharmaceuticals are two of the biggest global industries.

As every schoolboy knows.
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #52 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 4:29pm
 
freediver wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 12:29pm:
How much of our economy do you think is based on food production?


About 2.4%

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Karnal
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #53 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 4:38pm
 
Pantheon wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 12:33pm:
Karnal wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 11:20am:
aquascoot wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 5:49am:
Karnal wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 8:08pm:
All free enterprise theories argue that trade brings fairness, Aquascoot. There is no ideological division between the objectives of economic theorists, from neo-liberal free-traders to Keynesian or even communist economic policies - ALL have fairness as an economic objective.

There is not one economic school of thought that advocates a divide between rich and poor. ALL economic thinkers, from Adam Smith to Karl Marx, have equality as an end, or a foundational principle, of their ideas.

This, essentially, is what the field of political-economy is all about: lifting everybody out of poverty and generating prosperity for all in equal measures.

This is what modern politics is all about - in theory, if not in practice.



The theory that politics can create a society where we are all equal is an interesting theory.


While some political theories push for this, it's not the point. The point is reducing inequality.

And it's not me saying this, it's the G20, the IMF, the World Bank, and a host of institutions and global forums. The growing divide between rich and poor is a major issue globally right now, second perhaps to climate change.

The two issues, however, are interrelated. The rich and the poor produce more carbon emissions than those in between. Countries with large urban middle classes produce less CO2 than ones that don't.

Poor rural people clear rainforests and burn firewood. The rich have multiple homes and use more energy.

The middle-classes live in high density dwellings and have less kids. Cities are far more sustainable than either rural poverty or the lifestyles of the rich and famous. Energy and transport is more concentrated and efficient. Societies that cultivate their middle class produce far less CO2 emissions than ones that don't.

Reducing social inequality is not only good for economies, it's good for the environment.


Why is growing inequality is such a bad thing? Looking at countries with low inequality like pre 1980s China and 1950-1990s USSR vs High inequality states like 1950s-1990s United states, Lower inequality didnt aid or help with economy and the US was by far more environmental than the USSR..


You're comparing developing and developed economies. You might as well compare medieval Europe with Aboriginal settlement.

But in the 1950s, the USSR had high growth and, compared to undeveloped countries (like China), a high average living standard. The USSR propped up a number of developing economies during this time. It became an economic basket case in the 1980s.

Command economies have their benefits, particularly in the transition towards development.

Growing inequality can be the sign of a sign of a struggling economy. Growing inequality leads to social and political unrest, if not upheaval.
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #54 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 4:42pm
 
The elite need to understand that when the working class are happy they are happy. Wake yourself up 24/7, 365 days a year and do a job you hate . It's hard. It's easier when you feel that your children have a future.
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #55 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 5:37pm
 
Karnal wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 8:08pm:
This, essentially, is what the field of political-economy is all about: lifting everybody out of poverty and generating prosperity for all in equal measures.

This is what modern politics is all about - in theory, if not in practice.

Bollox, PB.

Not every economic theory is aiming for communism - which is what "prosperity for all in equal measure is".

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Karnal
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #56 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 8:15pm
 
Soren wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 5:37pm:
Karnal wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 8:08pm:
This, essentially, is what the field of political-economy is all about: lifting everybody out of poverty and generating prosperity for all in equal measures.

This is what modern politics is all about - in theory, if not in practice.

Bollox, PB.

Not every economic theory is aiming for communism - which is what "prosperity for all in equal measure is".



You studied at the University of Balogney, old dear, so this should be an easy question for you.

Which political-economic theory advocates inequality? And which modern social political models don’t focus on equality?

Have a stab, old chap.

Ever yours,

PB.
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #57 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 8:26pm
 
Quote:
A hell of a lot. From the patents for seeds to the chemicals for farming to transport and distribution, food is one of the biggest industries in the world.


It is down from close to 100% to under 3%, and still falling.

Quote:
Command economies have their benefits, particularly in the transition towards development.


They tend to hinder development. Most of the "advances" under early communist Russia were the result of forcing people off the land and into industrial centres - something they had already done voluntarily elsewhere. It was a huge advance on the old system of overcrowded farmland and not much to do, but it was only ever going to be a poor imitation of what happened elsewhere. You can get rapid and sustainable improvement by simply allowing people to do it themselves. This is no different to the standard benign dictatorship fantasy that the government can manage the end product better (do you think we have 'finished'?). Russia has fallen in a heap precisely because the government managed the transition. Now they have to start from scratch and do it properly.

Quote:
Growing inequality can be the sign of a sign of a struggling economy.


Or a booming one. Or a steady one. Or no economy at all. Or crushing dictatorship. Or liberal freedom. I suppose it's a bit like reading tea leaves.
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #58 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 9:03pm
 
Karnal wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 8:15pm:
Soren wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 5:37pm:
Karnal wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 8:08pm:
This, essentially, is what the field of political-economy is all about: lifting everybody out of poverty and generating prosperity for all in equal measures.

This is what modern politics is all about - in theory, if not in practice.

Bollox, PB.

Not every economic theory is aiming for communism - which is what "prosperity for all in equal measure is".



You studied at the University of Balogney, old dear, so this should be an easy question for you.

Which political-economic theory advocates inequality? And which modern social political models don’t focus on equality?

Have a stab, old chap.

Ever yours,

PB.

EFF Off Pb.

That is NOT what you said.

What you said is highlighted.

Don't ALWAYS be dishonest AND stupid.



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Karnal
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Re: Is fairness a great driver of economic growth..
Reply #59 - Nov 10th, 2015 at 9:22pm
 
Soren wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 9:03pm:
Karnal wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 8:15pm:
Soren wrote on Nov 10th, 2015 at 5:37pm:
Karnal wrote on Nov 9th, 2015 at 8:08pm:
This, essentially, is what the field of political-economy is all about: lifting everybody out of poverty and generating prosperity for all in equal measures.

This is what modern politics is all about - in theory, if not in practice.

Bollox, PB.

Not every economic theory is aiming for communism - which is what "prosperity for all in equal measure is".



You studied at the University of Balogney, old dear, so this should be an easy question for you.

Which political-economic theory advocates inequality? And which modern social political models don’t focus on equality?

Have a stab, old chap.

Ever yours,

PB.

EFF Off Pb.

That is NOT what you said.

What you said is highlighted.

Don't ALWAYS be dishonest AND stupid.





So utilise your marvellous university education and tell us all which economic theories don’t seek to maximise prosperity for all, dear chap.

In the words of your prophetess, please explain.
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