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NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase (Read 6635 times)
Dnarever
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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #75 - Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:11pm  
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:43am:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html


That is a pretty long an comprehensive list. It doesn't leave a lot for the states. It is also my understanding that outside ot those powers specifically granted to the states, the federal government has the power to override - and has done so.


The point you ignore is that nobody is suggesting that that will happen. The consensus is that the current rules will be honoured.
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mariacostel
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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #76 - Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:17pm  
Dnarever wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:11pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:43am:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html


That is a pretty long an comprehensive list. It doesn't leave a lot for the states. It is also my understanding that outside ot those powers specifically granted to the states, the federal government has the power to override - and has done so.


The point you ignore is that nobody is suggesting that that will happen. The consensus is that the current rules will be honoured.


Who's opinion? Yours?  If the government decides to increase the GST then the federal parliament will decide. It will probably be the major election policy. And after the election, the senate will simply vote how they want anyhow with zero regard for the election outcome. At no time will the Premier's agreement be sought and probably not even their opinion.
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Dnarever
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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #77 - Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:25pm  
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:17pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:11pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:43am:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html


That is a pretty long an comprehensive list. It doesn't leave a lot for the states. It is also my understanding that outside ot those powers specifically granted to the states, the federal government has the power to override - and has done so.


The point you ignore is that nobody is suggesting that that will happen. The consensus is that the current rules will be honoured.


Who's opinion? Yours?  If the government decides to increase the GST then the federal parliament will decide. It will probably be the major election policy. And after the election, the senate will simply vote how they want anyhow with zero regard for the election outcome. At no time will the Premier's agreement be sought and probably not even their opinion.


I like how strongly you argue that Howard Costello Abbott and the Liberals have been lying on this topic for years.

You sure that you support them ?
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mariacostel
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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #78 - Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:48pm  
Dnarever wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:25pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:17pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:11pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:43am:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html


That is a pretty long an comprehensive list. It doesn't leave a lot for the states. It is also my understanding that outside ot those powers specifically granted to the states, the federal government has the power to override - and has done so.


The point you ignore is that nobody is suggesting that that will happen. The consensus is that the current rules will be honoured.


Who's opinion? Yours?  If the government decides to increase the GST then the federal parliament will decide. It will probably be the major election policy. And after the election, the senate will simply vote how they want anyhow with zero regard for the election outcome. At no time will the Premier's agreement be sought and probably not even their opinion.


I like how strongly you argue that Howard Costello Abbott and the Liberals have been lying on this topic for years.

You sure that you support them ?


They conned the ignorant an ill-informed clowns that fill state parliaments that they would have a say in any changes to stroke their egos. Any half-wit with a modicum of knowledge of government and the constitution would have known better, but they got sucked in just the same. Even now, there are fools like Andrews think that his anti-increase opinion carries any weight.

Howard was a very clever fellow in politics. He knew how to stroke egos to get a job done.
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Dnarever
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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #79 - Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:58pm  
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:48pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:25pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:17pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:11pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:43am:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html


That is a pretty long an comprehensive list. It doesn't leave a lot for the states. It is also my understanding that outside ot those powers specifically granted to the states, the federal government has the power to override - and has done so.


The point you ignore is that nobody is suggesting that that will happen. The consensus is that the current rules will be honoured.


Who's opinion? Yours?  If the government decides to increase the GST then the federal parliament will decide. It will probably be the major election policy. And after the election, the senate will simply vote how they want anyhow with zero regard for the election outcome. At no time will the Premier's agreement be sought and probably not even their opinion.


I like how strongly you argue that Howard Costello Abbott and the Liberals have been lying on this topic for years.

You sure that you support them ?


They conned the ignorant an ill-informed clowns that fill state parliaments that they would have a say in any changes to stroke their egos. Any half-wit with a modicum of knowledge of government and the constitution would have known better, but they got sucked in just the same. Even now, there are fools like Andrews think that his anti-increase opinion carries any weight.

Howard was a very clever fellow in politics. He knew how to stroke egos to get a job done.


If Labor had done that you would call it a despicable lie.

Even Abbott went to the last election (2013) using that as his GST defence for not being able to increase the GST.
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crocodile
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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #80 - Oct 21st, 2015 at 4:04pm  
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 2:51pm:
crocodile wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 12:10pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:43am:
crocodile wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 8:51am:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 7:53am:
Cliff48 wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 5:47pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 5:43pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 5:19pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 4:33pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 10:44am:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 7:18am:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 6:29am:
NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase

The likelihood of being able to bully, bribe or blackmail every state and the senate into supporting an increase is still fairly slim.


The states don't have a say. It is purely Federal Parliament. And if push comes to shove, take it to a Double Dissolution election and it is all done and dusted.


The states don't have a say.

Under the current legislation all states have to agree and the chance of the senate agreeing to change that position is zero.


The states don't actually have the constitutional right to disagree with federal legislation. This has been investigated before and found to be the case. GST is solely the province of the federal government and nothing else.


In this case it has nothing to do with disagreeing with federal legislation they are just following the legislations requirements.


The point is that this so-called 'states agreement' is effectively non-existent. Any legislation passed by federal parliament is law and no state can counter that. It is even in the constitution to preclude any state parliament from over-ruling federal parliament. The agreement - if it even exists - is both worthless and unconstitutional.


You are suggesting that legislation passed by Federal government is void?  Can you provide a source that backs that claim?  I doubt it!


It is unconstitutional for the federal government to be over-ruled by the states. This supposed agreement is simply a bit of legislation which can be overturned in an instance and isn't constitutional anyhow. Any change to the GST is entirely the province of the federal government. Costello and Howard did this as a sop to the gullible states who swallowed it hook, line and sinker.


No. Federal legislation takes precedence only with the articles in section 51. Otherwise, the states tell the feds to piss off.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html



That is a pretty long an comprehensive list. It doesn't leave a lot for the states. It is also my understanding that outside ot those powers specifically granted to the states, the federal government has the power to override - and has done so.


No Maria, those on the list are powers granted by the states to the Commonwealth not the other way around. When you examine the list it is not really all that comprehensive.

If the Commonwealth held precedent over articles not on the list there would be no reason to even have a list.


Would you like to identify any areas of significance that the states have sole rights over? Education is apparently one. Do you have any others?


Absolutely anything not under section 51 and those submitted previously by referral.
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mariacostel
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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #81 - Oct 21st, 2015 at 5:00pm  
crocodile wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 4:04pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 2:51pm:
crocodile wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 12:10pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:43am:
crocodile wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 8:51am:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 7:53am:
Cliff48 wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 5:47pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 5:43pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 5:19pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 4:33pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 10:44am:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 7:18am:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 20th, 2015 at 6:29am:
NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase

The likelihood of being able to bully, bribe or blackmail every state and the senate into supporting an increase is still fairly slim.


The states don't have a say. It is purely Federal Parliament. And if push comes to shove, take it to a Double Dissolution election and it is all done and dusted.


The states don't have a say.

Under the current legislation all states have to agree and the chance of the senate agreeing to change that position is zero.


The states don't actually have the constitutional right to disagree with federal legislation. This has been investigated before and found to be the case. GST is solely the province of the federal government and nothing else.


In this case it has nothing to do with disagreeing with federal legislation they are just following the legislations requirements.


The point is that this so-called 'states agreement' is effectively non-existent. Any legislation passed by federal parliament is law and no state can counter that. It is even in the constitution to preclude any state parliament from over-ruling federal parliament. The agreement - if it even exists - is both worthless and unconstitutional.


You are suggesting that legislation passed by Federal government is void?  Can you provide a source that backs that claim?  I doubt it!


It is unconstitutional for the federal government to be over-ruled by the states. This supposed agreement is simply a bit of legislation which can be overturned in an instance and isn't constitutional anyhow. Any change to the GST is entirely the province of the federal government. Costello and Howard did this as a sop to the gullible states who swallowed it hook, line and sinker.


No. Federal legislation takes precedence only with the articles in section 51. Otherwise, the states tell the feds to piss off.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html



That is a pretty long an comprehensive list. It doesn't leave a lot for the states. It is also my understanding that outside ot those powers specifically granted to the states, the federal government has the power to override - and has done so.


No Maria, those on the list are powers granted by the states to the Commonwealth not the other way around. When you examine the list it is not really all that comprehensive.

If the Commonwealth held precedent over articles not on the list there would be no reason to even have a list.


Would you like to identify any areas of significance that the states have sole rights over? Education is apparently one. Do you have any others?


Absolutely anything not under section 51 and those submitted previously by referral.


So no examples then?  That was the point of the question - that there is very little not actually covered under section 51.
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Kytro
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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #82 - Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:04pm  
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:17pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:11pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:43am:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html


That is a pretty long an comprehensive list. It doesn't leave a lot for the states. It is also my understanding that outside ot those powers specifically granted to the states, the federal government has the power to override - and has done so.


The point you ignore is that nobody is suggesting that that will happen. The consensus is that the current rules will be honoured.


Who's opinion? Yours?  If the government decides to increase the GST then the federal parliament will decide. It will probably be the major election policy. And after the election, the senate will simply vote how they want anyhow with zero regard for the election outcome. At no time will the Premier's agreement be sought and probably not even their opinion.


The senate were elected too, and have as much right to vote how their constituents would want them too as well.

If you think they federal government is going to run on increasing the GST without support from the states, they almost certainly won't.
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Dnarever
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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #83 - Oct 22nd, 2015 at 6:26am  
Kytro wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:04pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:17pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:11pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:43am:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html


That is a pretty long an comprehensive list. It doesn't leave a lot for the states. It is also my understanding that outside ot those powers specifically granted to the states, the federal government has the power to override - and has done so.


The point you ignore is that nobody is suggesting that that will happen. The consensus is that the current rules will be honoured.


Who's opinion? Yours?  If the government decides to increase the GST then the federal parliament will decide. It will probably be the major election policy. And after the election, the senate will simply vote how they want anyhow with zero regard for the election outcome. At no time will the Premier's agreement be sought and probably not even their opinion.


The senate were elected too, and have as much right to vote how their constituents would want them too as well.

If you think they federal government is going to run on increasing the GST without support from the states, they almost certainly won't.


They may just call it tax reform before the election but more likely they will squeeze the states more financially to force them to ask for it.
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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #84 - Oct 22nd, 2015 at 7:19am  
Yup, while they squeeze pennies from pensioners etc the tax exemption on super will be bigger than the entire pension next financial year, large corporations evade paying tax on Australian earnings, the FBT is being ripped off etc.

An increase to the GST really should not even be considered until all these other drains on the revenue have been fixed.

Despite what the Libs say, increasing the GST is just cover for big tax cuts to the top 20% of income earners. A neocon con.
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mariacostel
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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #85 - Oct 22nd, 2015 at 9:10am  
Kytro wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:04pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:17pm:
Dnarever wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 3:11pm:
mariacostel wrote on Oct 21st, 2015 at 10:43am:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html


That is a pretty long an comprehensive list. It doesn't leave a lot for the states. It is also my understanding that outside ot those powers specifically granted to the states, the federal government has the power to override - and has done so.


The point you ignore is that nobody is suggesting that that will happen. The consensus is that the current rules will be honoured.


Who's opinion? Yours?  If the government decides to increase the GST then the federal parliament will decide. It will probably be the major election policy. And after the election, the senate will simply vote how they want anyhow with zero regard for the election outcome. At no time will the Premier's agreement be sought and probably not even their opinion.


The senate were elected too, and have as much right to vote how their constituents would want them too as well.

If you think they federal government is going to run on increasing the GST without support from the states, they almost certainly won't.


This gets to the question of mandates. The senate often ends up with the power to vote down a policy that was approved of by the voters during an election. At some point, the senate has a duty to honour that rather than vote their own way. Not always of course, but there are some instances where they should.
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Kytro
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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #86 - Oct 22nd, 2015 at 9:23am  
mariacostel wrote on Oct 22nd, 2015 at 9:10am:
[

This gets to the question of mandates. The senate often ends up with the power to vote down a policy that was approved of by the voters during an election. At some point, the senate has a duty to honour that rather than vote their own way. Not always of course, but there are some instances where they should.


Mandates are, and have always been nonsense. The only mandate you have is if you have the numbers to pass the policy.

The elected senate representatives have as much duty to pursue their platforms as elected members of the house of representatives.

People also make compromises when they vote. A vote for a party isn't a tacit endorsement of all polices that they happen to come up with.

Effectively while parties may compromise if they believe there is a case for it, they have no duty to do so, and there is a mechanism to relieve roadblocks.

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