Australian Politics Forum - NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase

Jovial Monk Gold Member Online Dogs not cats! Posts: 50220 Gender:	Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase Reply #60 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 9:14am Anything not listed the commonwealth takes precedence. In the US it is the states take precedence.
Back to top	OzPolitic needs a >real< Environment MRB now! IP Logged

Kytro

Gold Member

Offline

Blasphemy: a victimless
crime

Posts: 3409
Adelaide
Gender: male

Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #61 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 9:21am

crocodile wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:48am:

Kytro wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:31am:

crocodile wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 9:02pm:

That is profoundly untrue. Only the legislative powers ceded to the commonwealth in section 51 of the constitution are affected in this way. Taxation you will find cannot disadvantage one state over another. A different GST rate across states would have a tough time in the courts.

On what premise are you basing this? If it's not a constitutional ground, then it must be legislative, and if it's legislative it can be changed.

Section 51 covers the legislative powers of the Commonwealth. They are restricted. Anything not listed then the states take precedence.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html

Yes the states have residual powers, and both the federal government and state governments can levy taxes, though in practice only the federal government does.

What part of this means that tax must even?

Back to top

IP Logged

crocodile

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 6683
Gender: male

Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #62 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 9:28am

Kytro wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 9:21am:

crocodile wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:48am:

Kytro wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:31am:

crocodile wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 9:02pm:

That is profoundly untrue. Only the legislative powers ceded to the commonwealth in section 51 of the constitution are affected in this way. Taxation you will find cannot disadvantage one state over another. A different GST rate across states would have a tough time in the courts.

On what premise are you basing this? If it's not a constitutional ground, then it must be legislative, and if it's legislative it can be changed.

Section 51 covers the legislative powers of the Commonwealth. They are restricted. Anything not listed then the states take precedence.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html

Yes the states have residual powers, and both the federal government and state governments can levy taxes, though in practice only the federal government does.

What part of this means that tax must even?

(ii) taxation; but so as not to discriminate between States or parts of States;

Back to top

Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

IP Logged

crocodile

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 6683
Gender: male

Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #63 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 9:30am

Jovial Monk wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 9:14am:

Anything not listed the commonwealth takes precedence.

In the US it is the states take precedence.

If that were the case there would be no need to list anything at all. The Commonwealth is restricted to legislation only in the defined areas listed unless by referral.

Back to top

Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

IP Logged

Kytro

Gold Member

Offline

Blasphemy: a victimless
crime

Posts: 3409
Adelaide
Gender: male

Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #64 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 9:39am

crocodile wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 9:28am:

(ii) taxation; but so as not to discriminate between States or parts of States;

That's what I get for skipping over it Grin

.

It looks like they federal government must apply any taxation to the states on the same basis. The only way around this would be to remove the ban on states taxing and allow them to locally boost the GST.

Back to top

IP Logged

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 88673 Proud Old White Australian Man Gender:	Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase Reply #65 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 10:28am Ban all taxes.... especially the GST.
Back to top	“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” ― John Adams IP Logged

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 88673
Proud Old White Australian Man
Gender: male

Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #66 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 10:32am

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:53am:

It is unconstitutional for the federal government to be over-ruled by the states. This supposed agreement is simply a bit of legislation which can be overturned in an instance and isn't constitutional anyhow. Any change to the GST is entirely the province of the federal government. Costello and Howard did this as a sop to the gullible states who swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

Do you begin yet, Grasshopper, to see the very real issue behind The Divine Right of Elected Government, and are you beginning to see what it is you are saying here?

Your very position throws the entire governance of this country into disrepute and shows the paucity of honour within this system.... as well as the very real and present danger of any unfettered right to create 'legislation'......

Legislation is not intended to suit the ends of government - it is intended to suit the ends of Law and of service to the people. We do not yet live in an autocratic state controlled by an elite self-chosen, and history shows us never more than clearly how very dangerous such a position is once foisted upon a sleeping public.

If legislation were passed this afternoon saying that all marias would be incarcerated for life as enemies of the state - would that be Law or legislation? Meditate upon this difference, Grasshopper.

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

Dnarever

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 60269
Here
Gender: male

Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #67 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 10:39am

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:53am:

It is unconstitutional for the federal government to be over-ruled by the states. This supposed agreement is simply a bit of legislation which can be overturned in an instance and isn't constitutional anyhow. Any change to the GST is entirely the province of the federal government. Costello and Howard did this as a sop to the gullible states who swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

The process for increasing the GST does not involve the states overruling the federal government. The process is that the decision must be a unanimous one made by the Standing Council on Federal Financial Relations—chaired by the Commonwealth Treasurer.

Back to top

IP Logged

mariacostel

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 7344
Sydney
Gender: female

Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #68 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 10:43am

crocodile wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:51am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:53am:

Cliff48 wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:47pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:43pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:19pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 4:33pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 10:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:18am:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 6:29am:

NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase

The likelihood of being able to bully, bribe or blackmail every state and the senate into supporting an increase is still fairly slim.

The states don't have a say. It is purely Federal Parliament. And if push comes to shove, take it to a Double Dissolution election and it is all done and dusted.

The states don't have a say.

Under the current legislation all states have to agree and the chance of the senate agreeing to change that position is zero.

The states don't actually have the constitutional right to disagree with federal legislation. This has been investigated before and found to be the case. GST is solely the province of the federal government and nothing else.

In this case it has nothing to do with disagreeing with federal legislation they are just following the legislations requirements.

The point is that this so-called 'states agreement' is effectively non-existent. Any legislation passed by federal parliament is law and no state can counter that. It is even in the constitution to preclude any state parliament from over-ruling federal parliament. The agreement - if it even exists - is both worthless and unconstitutional.

You are suggesting that legislation passed by Federal government is void? Can you provide a source that backs that claim? I doubt it!

It is unconstitutional for the federal government to be over-ruled by the states. This supposed agreement is simply a bit of legislation which can be overturned in an instance and isn't constitutional anyhow. Any change to the GST is entirely the province of the federal government. Costello and Howard did this as a sop to the gullible states who swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

No. Federal legislation takes precedence only with the articles in section 51. Otherwise, the states tell the feds to piss off.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html

That is a pretty long an comprehensive list. It doesn't leave a lot for the states. It is also my understanding that outside ot those powers specifically granted to the states, the federal government has the power to override - and has done so.

Back to top

IP Logged

mariacostel

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 7344
Sydney
Gender: female

Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #69 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 10:45am

Dnarever wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 10:39am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:53am:

It is unconstitutional for the federal government to be over-ruled by the states. This supposed agreement is simply a bit of legislation which can be overturned in an instance and isn't constitutional anyhow. Any change to the GST is entirely the province of the federal government. Costello and Howard did this as a sop to the gullible states who swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

The process for increasing the GST does not involve the states overruling the federal government. The process is that the decision must be a unanimous one made by the Standing Council on Federal Financial Relations—chaired by the Commonwealth Treasurer.

A process that can be overturned by simple legislation and some opinions are that it doesn't even need that. The right to impose taxes federally is without restriction.

Back to top

IP Logged

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 88673
Proud Old White Australian Man
Gender: male

Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #70 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 10:56am

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 10:45am:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 10:39am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:53am:

It is unconstitutional for the federal government to be over-ruled by the states. This supposed agreement is simply a bit of legislation which can be overturned in an instance and isn't constitutional anyhow. Any change to the GST is entirely the province of the federal government. Costello and Howard did this as a sop to the gullible states who swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

The process for increasing the GST does not involve the states overruling the federal government. The process is that the decision must be a unanimous one made by the Standing Council on Federal Financial Relations—chaired by the Commonwealth Treasurer.

A process that can be overturned by simple legislation and some opinions are that it doesn't even need that. The right to impose taxes federally is without restriction.

So, Grasshopper, you agree that we live in a totalitarian dictatorship, in which there are no real rights adhering to the general public? It is good to see your personal getting of wisdom proceeding apace....

Back to top

“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

IP Logged

crocodile

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 6683
Gender: male

Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #71 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 12:10pm

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 10:43am: