Australian Politics Forum - NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase

Dnarever

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #45 - Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:19pm

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 4:33pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 10:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:18am:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 6:29am:

NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase

The likelihood of being able to bully, bribe or blackmail every state and the senate into supporting an increase is still fairly slim.

The states don't have a say. It is purely Federal Parliament. And if push comes to shove, take it to a Double Dissolution election and it is all done and dusted.

The states don't have a say.

Under the current legislation all states have to agree and the chance of the senate agreeing to change that position is zero.

The states don't actually have the constitutional right to disagree with federal legislation. This has been investigated before and found to be the case. GST is solely the province of the federal government and nothing else.

In this case it has nothing to do with disagreeing with federal legislation they are just following the legislations requirements.

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mariacostel

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #46 - Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:43pm

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:19pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 4:33pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 10:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:18am:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 6:29am:

NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase

The likelihood of being able to bully, bribe or blackmail every state and the senate into supporting an increase is still fairly slim.

The states don't have a say. It is purely Federal Parliament. And if push comes to shove, take it to a Double Dissolution election and it is all done and dusted.

The states don't have a say.

Under the current legislation all states have to agree and the chance of the senate agreeing to change that position is zero.

The states don't actually have the constitutional right to disagree with federal legislation. This has been investigated before and found to be the case. GST is solely the province of the federal government and nothing else.

In this case it has nothing to do with disagreeing with federal legislation they are just following the legislations requirements.

The point is that this so-called 'states agreement' is effectively non-existent. Any legislation passed by federal parliament is law and no state can counter that. It is even in the constitution to preclude any state parliament from over-ruling federal parliament. The agreement - if it even exists - is both worthless and unconstitutional.

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Cliff48

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #47 - Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:47pm

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:43pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:19pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 4:33pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 10:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:18am:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 6:29am:

NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase

The likelihood of being able to bully, bribe or blackmail every state and the senate into supporting an increase is still fairly slim.

The states don't have a say. It is purely Federal Parliament. And if push comes to shove, take it to a Double Dissolution election and it is all done and dusted.

The states don't have a say.

Under the current legislation all states have to agree and the chance of the senate agreeing to change that position is zero.

The states don't actually have the constitutional right to disagree with federal legislation. This has been investigated before and found to be the case. GST is solely the province of the federal government and nothing else.

In this case it has nothing to do with disagreeing with federal legislation they are just following the legislations requirements.

The point is that this so-called 'states agreement' is effectively non-existent. Any legislation passed by federal parliament is law and no state can counter that. It is even in the constitution to preclude any state parliament from over-ruling federal parliament. The agreement - if it even exists - is both worthless and unconstitutional.

You are suggesting that legislation passed by Federal government is void? Can you provide a source that backs that claim? I doubt it!

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Dnarever

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #48 - Oct 20^th, 2015 at 6:55pm

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:43pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:19pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 4:33pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 10:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:18am:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 6:29am:

NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase

The likelihood of being able to bully, bribe or blackmail every state and the senate into supporting an increase is still fairly slim.

The states don't have a say. It is purely Federal Parliament. And if push comes to shove, take it to a Double Dissolution election and it is all done and dusted.

The states don't have a say.

Under the current legislation all states have to agree and the chance of the senate agreeing to change that position is zero.

The states don't actually have the constitutional right to disagree with federal legislation. This has been investigated before and found to be the case. GST is solely the province of the federal government and nothing else.

In this case it has nothing to do with disagreeing with federal legislation they are just following the legislations requirements.

The point is that this so-called 'states agreement' is effectively non-existent. Any legislation passed by federal parliament is law and no state can counter that. It is even in the constitution to preclude any state parliament from over-ruling federal parliament. The agreement - if it even exists - is both worthless and unconstitutional.

There is no indication that the federal government are attempting to circumvent their own legislation.

I agree they could if they wanted to and if the senate would pass it but their is no indication of that happening.

You are the only one putting that option on the table.

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Bobby. Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 112834 Melbourne Gender:	Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase Reply #49 - Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:00pm The Govt, is not prepared to reduce public service wages - The public service unions are too strong to fight against - the only other alternative is to raise the GST. We can blame greedy public servants doing useless bureaucratic jobs - wasting our money.
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crocodile

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #50 - Oct 20^th, 2015 at 9:02pm

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:43pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:19pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 4:33pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 10:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:18am:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 6:29am:

NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase

The likelihood of being able to bully, bribe or blackmail every state and the senate into supporting an increase is still fairly slim.

The states don't have a say. It is purely Federal Parliament. And if push comes to shove, take it to a Double Dissolution election and it is all done and dusted.

The states don't have a say.

Under the current legislation all states have to agree and the chance of the senate agreeing to change that position is zero.

The states don't actually have the constitutional right to disagree with federal legislation. This has been investigated before and found to be the case. GST is solely the province of the federal government and nothing else.

In this case it has nothing to do with disagreeing with federal legislation they are just following the legislations requirements.

The point is that this so-called 'states agreement' is effectively non-existent. Any legislation passed by federal parliament is law and no state can counter that. It is even in the constitution to preclude any state parliament from over-ruling federal parliament. The agreement - if it even exists - is both worthless and unconstitutional.

That is profoundly untrue. Only the legislative powers ceded to the commonwealth in section 51 of the constitution are affected in this way. Taxation you will find cannot disadvantage one state over another. A different GST rate across states would have a tough time in the courts.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #51 - Oct 20^th, 2015 at 10:48pm

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:43pm:

The point is that this so-called 'states agreement' is effectively non-existent. Any legislation passed by federal parliament is law and no state can counter that. It is even in the constitution to preclude any state parliament from over-ruling federal parliament. The agreement - if it even exists - is both worthless and unconstitutional.

Ah, Grasshopper - you are beginning to approach the issue of Divine Right of Elected Government - truly is your education going forward........ now mediate upon the reality you have espoused here.. extend your mind and your reasoning, and find the final answer. Guide you mind along the lines of whether or not it is right that a government may set in place any legislation it chooses..... then will you find your answer.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #52 - Oct 20^th, 2015 at 10:51pm

**chews popcorn and awaits outcome of dispute over State's Rights, Secession and eventual Civil War**

If NSW secedes and goes to war - I go with her .... but I fear the outcome, since there is not a single cannon factory in The South.... and while any Southron Gennuman can lick his weight in Cambra wildcats - there are just too many of them...

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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Jovial Monk

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #53 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 6:58am

Bobby. wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:00pm:

The Govt, is not prepared to reduce public service wages -

The public service unions are too strong to fight against -

the only other alternative is to raise the GST.

We can blame greedy public servants doing useless bureaucratic jobs - wasting our money.

Govt is imposing effective pay cuts on the PS. In the face of sluggish wage growth that is idiocy pure and simple. Their numbers have been cut and cut, now we have 6.4% unemployment and 10% underemployment.

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OzPolitic needs a >real< Environment MRB now!

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Kytro

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #54 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:31am

crocodile wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 9:02pm:

That is profoundly untrue. Only the legislative powers ceded to the commonwealth in section 51 of the constitution are affected in this way. Taxation you will find cannot disadvantage one state over another. A different GST rate across states would have a tough time in the courts.

On what premise are you basing this? If it's not a constitutional ground, then it must be legislative, and if it's legislative it can be changed.

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mariacostel

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #55 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:53am

Cliff48 wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:47pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:43pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 5:19pm:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 4:33pm:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 10:44am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 7:18am:

Dnarever wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 6:29am:

NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase

The likelihood of being able to bully, bribe or blackmail every state and the senate into supporting an increase is still fairly slim.

The states don't have a say. It is purely Federal Parliament. And if push comes to shove, take it to a Double Dissolution election and it is all done and dusted.

The states don't have a say.

Under the current legislation all states have to agree and the chance of the senate agreeing to change that position is zero.

The states don't actually have the constitutional right to disagree with federal legislation. This has been investigated before and found to be the case. GST is solely the province of the federal government and nothing else.

In this case it has nothing to do with disagreeing with federal legislation they are just following the legislations requirements.

The point is that this so-called 'states agreement' is effectively non-existent. Any legislation passed by federal parliament is law and no state can counter that. It is even in the constitution to preclude any state parliament from over-ruling federal parliament. The agreement - if it even exists - is both worthless and unconstitutional.

You are suggesting that legislation passed by Federal government is void? Can you provide a source that backs that claim? I doubt it!

It is unconstitutional for the federal government to be over-ruled by the states. This supposed agreement is simply a bit of legislation which can be overturned in an instance and isn't constitutional anyhow. Any change to the GST is entirely the province of the federal government. Costello and Howard did this as a sop to the gullible states who swallowed it hook, line and sinker.

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Kytro

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #56 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:21am

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:53am:

It is unconstitutional for the federal government to be over-ruled by the states.

If federal law and state law are in conflict, then federal law overrides it, but there are matters in which the states have the final say, like education or gun control.

Technically the states don't overrule the federal government, but they do have powers that federal government does not.

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mariacostel

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #57 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:27am

Kytro wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:21am:

mariacostel wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:53am:

It is unconstitutional for the federal government to be over-ruled by the states.

If federal law and state law are in conflict, then federal law overrides it, but there are matters in which the states have the final say, like education or gun control.

Technically the states don't overrule the federal government, but they do have powers that federal government does not.

Yes that is true eg mineral and resource rights (eg water etc). But they are constitutional guarantees. Everything else is legislative and can be changed. The states cannot legislate to override federal legislation eg NT Euthanasia bill or the ACT Gay Marriage act. Similarly, their wishes are irrelevant on the GST.

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crocodile

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #58 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:48am

Kytro wrote on Oct 21^st, 2015 at 7:31am:

crocodile wrote on Oct 20^th, 2015 at 9:02pm:

That is profoundly untrue. Only the legislative powers ceded to the commonwealth in section 51 of the constitution are affected in this way. Taxation you will find cannot disadvantage one state over another. A different GST rate across states would have a tough time in the courts.

On what premise are you basing this? If it's not a constitutional ground, then it must be legislative, and if it's legislative it can be changed.

Section 51 covers the legislative powers of the Commonwealth. They are restricted. Anything not listed then the states take precedence.

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s51.html

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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crocodile

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Re: NSW To Push Treasurers On GST Increase
Reply #59 - Oct 21^st, 2015 at 8:51am