Australian Politics Forum - Message To Productivity Commission

Johnsmith

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #165 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 10:34am

Swagman wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 10:24pm:

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 9:29pm:

Dnarever wrote on Sep 27^th, 2015 at 9:26pm:

There was a trial, it was called workchoices it removed virtually all penalty rates from the hospitality industry between 2004 and 2008. It had virtually zero impact on employment both when it was introduced and when it was removed.

The fact is that your theory has been disproven in practice, removing penalty rates does not impact employment.

Unemployment declined during Workchoices between 2004 & 2008 and then as soon as Labor removed Workchoices it spiked upwards where it remains.....

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/timbo2530/unemployment.jpg

Productivity declined to Swag Cheesy

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Johnsmith

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #166 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 10:41am

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 8:47am:

Losing your job or not being able to get one is a much bigger pay cut.... Roll Eyes

losing your job, why?

this is from the link provided by stunspore

ABS figures from 2013-14 show the net rate of growth in businesses like cafes and restaurants is far higher than in the overall economy. It sweeps away claims penalty rates are sending restaurants to the wall.

Cheesy

face it Swag, no matter how much you'd like your arguments to add up, they simply don't. Stop your ideological crap and look at the evidence (or lack off).

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Johnsmith

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #167 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 10:42am

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 10:07am:

The proprietor has to take a pay cut (to remain in business) because of market conditions

the proprietor does not take a pay cut, he takes a cut in profit. Most proprietors take a salary that doesn't change week to week. What changes is their profit at the end of the year.

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stunspore

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #168 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 11:59am

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 10:42am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 10:07am:

The proprietor has to take a pay cut (to remain in business) because of market conditions

the proprietor does not take a pay cut, he takes a cut in profit. Most proprietors take a salary that doesn't change week to week. What changes is their profit at the end of the year.

You can see why I doubt Swag's facts/opinions sometimes when he and others like Maria gets this wrong. All this stuff abut businesses but seems to have some misconceptions on how they operate. It worries me about the level of misinformed people who are very ideologically biased.

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Johnsmith

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #169 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 12:14pm

stunspore wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 11:59am:

You can see why I doubt Swag's facts/opinions sometimes when he and others like Maria gets this wrong.

I'm in business for myself. I draw a few thousand for personal use every month. If I need more, I take it. If I don't spend what I take, i take less the next month. My months takings have little to nothing to do with what I use in personal drawings.

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stunspore

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #170 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 12:26pm

If i recall my basic tax laws - an owner who draws profit from his/her business is doubly taxed - one at company (when the business makes a profit) then personal income tax (when profit becomes the income for the owner).

Hence it is always wiser for the owner to take salary as it becomes an expense for the business and taxed once only as personal income. Hence I find it interesting when Maria, Swag and others talk like they know how business operates. It also confuses me when people don't acknowledge there are concerns on either side, but refuse to address it in some way. Not responding to those concerns won't persuade people.

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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #171 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 12:44pm Johnsmith wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 12:14pm: I'm in business for myself Yeah, let me guess? Manufacturing bull schitt....
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Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #172 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:00pm

stunspore wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 12:26pm:

If i recall my basic tax laws - an owner who draws profit from his/her business is doubly taxed - one at company (when the business makes a profit) then personal income tax (when profit becomes the income for the owner).

Hence it is always wiser for the owner to take salary as it becomes an expense for the business and taxed once only as personal income. Hence I find it interesting when Maria, Swag and others talk like they know how business operates. It also confuses me when people don't acknowledge there are concerns on either side, but refuse to address it in some way. Not responding to those concerns won't persuade people.

Depends on the structure Stun. Sole Trader, Partnership or Company?

If you have a company you'd likely pay yourself a salary up to a max of $37K because your MTR would be less than the company tax rate of 30%.

If you're a sole trader it doesn't matter squat because you are taxed on your net earnings like anyone else. Your net profit is your taxable income.

Either way if your business or company starts losing money because of a downward economic trend it's money out of your pocket (AKA -> a pay cut) to say otherwise is just plain wrong.

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Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #173 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:22pm

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 10:41am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 8:47am:

Losing your job or not being able to get one is a much bigger pay cut.... Roll Eyes

losing your job, why?

this is from the link provided by stunspore

ABS figures from 2013-14 show the net rate of growth in businesses like cafes and restaurants is far higher than in the overall economy. It sweeps away claims penalty rates are sending restaurants to the wall.

Cheesy

face it Swag, no matter how much you'd like your arguments to add up, they simply don't. Stop your ideological crap and look at the evidence (or lack off).

It's not necessarily about sending a business to the wall Jonathon and macro industry growth doesn't always transfer over to the micro situations.

Coles and Woollies may experience growth in sales but at the expense of your corner store (or should I say ex-corner store).

The same goes for restaurants and cafes. The big well established, well located restaurants and cafes get the growth and can afford the penalty rates but the new fledgling businesses struggle with it.

There are plenty of Newsagents, Corner stores, cafes, restaurants even pubs where the owner or leaseholder staff their businesses with their own relatives or themselves on weekends instead of employing people because of the extra cost of penalty rates.

They simply don't consider the extra cost worth it so they do the job themselves. The penalty rate is costing people work in these situations obviously.

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Johnsmith

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #174 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:28pm

stunspore wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 12:26pm:

If i recall my basic tax laws - an owner who draws profit from his/her business is doubly taxed - one at company (when the business makes a profit) then personal income tax (when profit becomes the income for the owner).

Hence it is always wiser for the owner to take salary as it becomes an expense for the business and taxed once only as personal income. Hence I find it interesting when Maria, Swag and others talk like they know how business operates. It also confuses me when people don't acknowledge there are concerns on either side, but refuse to address it in some way. Not responding to those concerns won't persuade people.

Not many coffee shops owners or restaurants are run as companies.

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When politicians offer you something for nothing, or something that sounds too good to be true, it's always worth taking a careful second look.
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Johnsmith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4716 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #175 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:29pm Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 12:44pm: Johnsmith wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 12:14pm: I'm in business for myself Yeah, let me guess? Manufacturing bull schitt.... no, i leave that to you.
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Johnsmith

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #176 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:32pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

It's not necessarily about sending a business to the wall Jonathon and macro industry growth doesn't always transfer over to the micro situations.

and yet you're always crying penalty rates cost jobs.

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

The penalty rate is costing people work in these situations obviously.

ahh, now you're changing your story Grin

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Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #177 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:55pm

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:32pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

It's not necessarily about sending a business to the wall Jonathon and macro industry growth doesn't always transfer over to the micro situations.

and yet you're always crying penalty rates cost jobs.

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

The penalty rate is costing people work in these situations obviously.

ahh, now you're changing your story Grin

In what way?

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Dnarever

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #178 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 2:09pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 10:41am:

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 8:47am:

Losing your job or not being able to get one is a much bigger pay cut.... Roll Eyes

losing your job, why?

this is from the link provided by stunspore

ABS figures from 2013-14 show the net rate of growth in businesses like cafes and restaurants is far higher than in the overall economy. It sweeps away claims penalty rates are sending restaurants to the wall.

Cheesy

face it Swag, no matter how much you'd like your arguments to add up, they simply don't. Stop your ideological crap and look at the evidence (or lack off).

It's not necessarily about sending a business to the wall Jonathon and macro industry growth doesn't always transfer over to the micro situations.

Coles and Woollies may experience growth in sales but at the expense of your corner store (or should I say ex-corner store).

The same goes for restaurants and cafes. The big well established, well located restaurants and cafes get the growth and can afford the penalty rates but the new fledgling businesses struggle with it.

There are plenty of Newsagents, Corner stores, cafes, restaurants even pubs where the owner or leaseholder staff their businesses with their own relatives or themselves on weekends instead of employing people because of the extra cost of penalty rates.

They simply don't consider the extra cost worth it so they do the job themselves. The penalty rate is costing people work in these situations obviously.

Now you are putting their relatives out of work - the net gain in employment is zero ?

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Johnsmith

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #179 - Sep 28^th, 2015 at 3:17pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:55pm:

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:32pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

It's not necessarily about sending a business to the wall Jonathon and macro industry growth doesn't always transfer over to the micro situations.

and yet you're always crying penalty rates cost jobs.

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

The penalty rate is costing people work in these situations obviously.

ahh, now you're changing your story Grin

In what way?

Because now it's only under a specific situation that you claim it costs jobs .... under specific situations abolishing penalty rates will also cost jobs . The net result is the same old same old. No real difference to unemployment nubers.

Swagman wrote on Sep 28^th, 2015 at 1:22pm:

There are plenty of Newsagents, Corner stores, cafes, restaurants even pubs where the owner or leaseholder staff their businesses with their own relatives or themselves on weekends instead of employing people because of the extra cost of penalty rates.

They simply don't consider the extra cost worth it so they do the job themselves. The penalty rate is costing people work in these situations obviously.

So if penalty rates are abolished these family members will lose their jobs? Or perhaps you think they'd prefer not to work on weekends and so pick and chose the best days for themselves and force their staff to work the crappy days? WHICH IS THE WHOLE REASON FOR HAVING PENALTY RATES

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When politicians offer you something for nothing, or something that sounds too good to be true, it's always worth taking a careful second look.
(Malcolm Turncoat)

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