Australian Politics Forum - Message To Productivity Commission

Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #105 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:35am

What about the costs of recruitment, training, extra equipment etc? Surely a factory has an upper limit on how much of each separate input to production can be used economically?

At a certain point the productivity per person falls off, and they become surplus to needs... but Luong Yi can explain that to us when she gets here....

** You also cannot enforce a market for any extra production you create... without that market there is no point to any of this.

A cafe can only fit so may bums on seats and handle so many takeaways per hour.....

** Swag - you are running perilously close to a controlled economy here - once you begin to enforce one area of production/transfer of goods you kick down the door to all others.....

How long before Border Force are out there shoving people into lines at cafes and restaurants, and enforcing the Buy Coffee On Public Holidays Law..

But then I suppose a socialist controlled economy is only a good thing when you Uberkontrol the workers.....ONLY..... Grin

Such pride cometh before a great fall.....

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Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #106 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:47am

Jovial Monk wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:33am:

The company would only do that if it needed another 100 boxes a week. Nothing to do with penalty rates Roll Eyes

Not really, it could reduce the price of its product, and make its product more competitive. Local companies might buy this company's boxes instead of buying Chinese boxes for example?

Win a lucrative contract, and the company may have to massively increase its production and employ lots more box makers. This might create an under supply of box makers and push up the price of labour (wages).

Oh looky there.....an evil market force in action Cheesy

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Sir Grappler Truth Teller OAM

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #107 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:57am

Swagman wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:47am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:33am:

The company would only do that if it needed another 100 boxes a week. Nothing to do with penalty rates Roll Eyes

Not really, it could reduce the price of its product, and make its product more competitive. Local companies might buy this company's boxes instead of buying Chinese boxes for example?

Win a lucrative contract, and the company may have to massively increase its production and employ lots more box makers. This might create an under supply of box makers and push up the price of labour (wages).

Oh looky there.....an evil market force in action Cheesy

Lot of assumptions there, Swag.

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Dnarever

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #108 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 11:08am

Bam wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:12am:

This is what employers keep demanding:
Quote:

* Sunday penalty rates that are not part of overtime or shift work be reduced to Saturday rates for the hospitality, entertainment, retail, restaurants and cafe industries.
* Lower minimum wage.

This is what employers are offering to give up in exchange:
Quote:

The employers have to fill that second box with fair and reasonable offers of compensation so workers are not left worse off. Until they do, they are wasting their time.

No the offer you present is correct - the answer is nothing.

Also you mention the industries supposedly included, and you don't mention the industries excluder - essential services, but what isn't mentioned is all the other industries ?

I think we can call them the collateral damage industries.

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Dnarever

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #109 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 11:26am

Swagman wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:47am:

Jovial Monk wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 10:33am:

The company would only do that if it needed another 100 boxes a week. Nothing to do with penalty rates Roll Eyes

Not really, it could reduce the price of its product, and make its product more competitive. Local companies might buy this company's boxes instead of buying Chinese boxes for example?

Win a lucrative contract, and the company may have to massively increase its production and employ lots more box makers. This might create an under supply of box makers and push up the price of labour (wages).

Oh looky there.....an evil market force in action Cheesy

I can reduce the price of its boxes simply by not making them on a Sunday which is what they do now.

Do you know that you can employ an additional person Monday to Friday and pay them half what you would on a Sunday ? By you argument this would improve your productivity by producing more at a lower cost, even if you need more bloody boxes like a hole in the head.

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Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #110 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 11:51am

The simple point is that at double time on a Sunday there is 8 hours of work being paid per worker

for producing nothing

.

You seem to think that this is somehow logical? Roll Eyes

If 5 people are employed on Sunday at double time then that is 40 hours being paid for doing nothing. 40 hours is one full time job.

If there is an unemployed person available to fill that 40 hours, then they should fill it.

If not, and the business still wants to open, but no body wants to work at single time, then pay extra to work the Sunday shift. That's not a penalty rate. That's a reward rate and it's the market working.

The other simple point is that for the same labour cost as the penalty rate, the company gets 40 additional hours of production, and the community (tax-payer) doesn't have to pay unemployment benefits to the one previously unemployed person, and the community will now collect income tax from that previously unemployed person. Huh

What's wrong with this?

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Dnarever

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #111 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 12:57pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 11:51am:

The simple point is that at double time on a Sunday there is 8 hours of work being paid per worker

for producing nothing

.

You seem to think that this is somehow logical? Roll Eyes

If 5 people are employed on Sunday at double time then that is 40 hours being paid for doing nothing. 40 hours is one full time job.

If there is an unemployed person available to fill that 40 hours, then they should fill it.

If not, and the business still wants to open, but no body wants to work at single time, then pay extra to work the Sunday shift. That's not a penalty rate. That's a reward rate and it's the market working.

The other simple point is that for the same labour cost as the penalty rate, the company gets 40 additional hours of production, and the community (tax-payer) doesn't have to pay unemployment benefits to the one previously unemployed person, and the community will now collect income tax from that previously unemployed person. Huh

What's wrong with this?

Your whole argument is rubbish nobody is making boxes on Sunday and nobody needs to make boxes on Sunday, more than enough boxes can be produced Monday to Friday.

Sunday labour has an intrinsically higher economic value which is currently realised through penalty rates.

Claims about additional employment is bogus, nobody is going to employ additional people to make boxes that they don't need, or to make coffee that nobody wants.

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Johnsmith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4716 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #112 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 12:58pm Swagman wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 11:51am: The simple point is that at double time on a Sunday there is 8 hours of work being paid per worker for producing nothing . what they produce is not their problem, that's the bosses. You pay them for their time. You want them on Sunday, pay the penalties.
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stunspore

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #113 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 1:24pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 11:51am:

The simple point is that at double time on a Sunday there is 8 hours of work being paid per worker

for producing nothing

.

You seem to think that this is somehow logical? Roll Eyes

If 5 people are employed on Sunday at double time then that is 40 hours being paid for doing nothing. 40 hours is one full time job.

If there is an unemployed person available to fill that 40 hours, then they should fill it.

If not, and the business still wants to open, but no body wants to work at single time, then pay extra to work the Sunday shift. That's not a penalty rate. That's a reward rate and it's the market working.

The other simple point is that for the same labour cost as the penalty rate, the company gets 40 additional hours of production, and the community (tax-payer) doesn't have to pay unemployment benefits to the one previously unemployed person, and the community will now collect income tax from that previously unemployed person. Huh

What's wrong with this?

There really is no point to arguing with the self-deluded. A similar logic could be applied by saying how about we pay workers peanuts that way companies can remain (more) profitable. While we are at it, lets turn worker homes into sweat shops and work 24/7

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Swagman

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #114 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 1:25pm

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 12:58pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 11:51am:

The simple point is that at double time on a Sunday there is 8 hours of work being paid per worker for producing nothing
.

what they produce is not their problem, that's the bosses. You pay them for their time. You want them on Sunday, pay the penalties.

...it becomes their problem when the business closes down because it's uncompetitive and they become unemployed and the union starts whinging at the govt for tax payer assistance

A common theme these days.....

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Jovial Monk Gold Member Online Dogs not cats! Posts: 49229 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #115 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 2:13pm Garbage. They can pay for part time work M–F to make the boxes would otherwise be made on Sunday. There really is no case to be made to scrap penalty rates. Cutting them now would be economic madness.
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Johnsmith

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Re: Message To Productivity Commission
Reply #116 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 2:50pm

Swagman wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 1:25pm:

Johnsmith wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 12:58pm:

Swagman wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 11:51am:

The simple point is that at double time on a Sunday there is 8 hours of work being paid per worker for producing nothing
.

what they produce is not their problem, that's the bosses. You pay them for their time. You want them on Sunday, pay the penalties.

...it becomes their problem when the business closes down because it's uncompetitive and they become unemployed and the union starts whinging at the govt for tax payer assistance

A common theme these days.....

businesses don't close down because they don't want to pay penalty rates on Sunday, they simply close on Sundays Cheesy

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When politicians offer you something for nothing, or something that sounds too good to be true, it's always worth taking a careful second look.
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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #117 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 3:42pm ....yes which adds to unemployment
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Johnsmith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4716 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #118 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 3:44pm Swagman wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 3:42pm: ....yes which adds to unemployment so you keep claiming
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Bam Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 21905 Gender:	Re: Message To Productivity Commission Reply #119 - Sep 24^th, 2015 at 5:09pm Johnsmith wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 3:44pm: Swagman wrote on Sep 24^th, 2015 at 3:42pm: ....yes which adds to unemployment so you keep claiming ... without the slightest shred of supporting evidence.
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