Australian Politics Forum - the meaning of freedom

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #135 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 10:07am freediver wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 6:59pm: What has changed is that instead of Gandalf arguing they should not publish these cartoons because self censorship is a good thing, he is arguing they should not publish them because they are Muslims. Ah
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52029 At my desk.	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #136 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 10:41am Do you disagree Gandalf? Quote: It was the racial caricatures I was more worried about. Should we try to draw pictures of Muhammed lacking in any racial characteristics?
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Karnal

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #137 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:23am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 10:06am:

Karnal wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 6:46pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 10^th, 2015 at 6:11pm:

saying they were "tame" is neither here nor there.

And it certainly doesn't detract from the point that expressing the view that the cartoons were offensive and should not have been published - is not in any way undermining free speech. And moreover, thinking that refraining from saying it because of concerns of what the terrorist might make of it, is an appropriate way of standing up for free speech - is the height of irony and nothing less than a call for self-censorship.

Why shouldn't a cartoon of Muhammed saying "a hundred lashes if you don't buy this magazine" be published? I'm still trying to work out how it can be seen as offensive. What do you think?

I'm curious.

It was the racial caricatures I was more worried about.

Regardless, its irrelevant to the point. It could be Mother Theresa expressing goodwill to humanity, it doesn't matter - if someone finds it offensive and inappropriate, they should be free to say so, and not be deterred from saying it by external pressures.

Er yes, G. If you’re telling me my words or art have offended you in some way, you do have to say why you’ve been offended.

"Inappropriate" is just the modern word for verboten. If you want me to refrain from my work, you need to say why.

I’m a bit surprised you think all that needs to be said is "inappropriate" and "cultural sensitivities" and that’s it. Cartoonists, publishers, people should rub out what others don’t like and think up something unoffensive to fill up the blank space - without even being told what it is that offends.

After the attack, the original Charlie Hebdo front page was going to be a blank page. But remember, that was seen as even more provocative.

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« Last Edit: Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:30am by Karnal »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #138 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:33am

Karnal wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:23am:

I’m a bit surprised you think all that needs to be said is inappropriate and cultural sensitivities and that’s it. Cartoonists, publishers, people should rub it all out and think up something unoffensive, without even being told what it is that offends.

You seem to misunderstand. To be honest I'm not really sure what you are saying. My point is pretty simple in fact - cartoonists should be free to be dicks, and opponents should be free to object and say it was a stupid thing to do without being an underminer of free speech. Whether or not they give a good reason for their objection is neither here nor there.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #139 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:34am freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 10:41am: Should we try to draw pictures of Muhammed lacking in any racial characteristics? As Ben Kenobi said, you must do what you feel is right - of course.
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freediver

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #140 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:44am

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:33am:

Karnal wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:23am:

I’m a bit surprised you think all that needs to be said is inappropriate and cultural sensitivities and that’s it. Cartoonists, publishers, people should rub it all out and think up something unoffensive, without even being told what it is that offends.

You seem to misunderstand. To be honest I'm not really sure what you are saying. My point is pretty simple in fact - cartoonists should be free to be dicks, and opponents should be free to object and say it was a stupid thing to do without being an underminer of free speech. Whether or not they give a good reason for their objection is neither here nor there.

Gandalf what made you change your mind on the whole self censorship thing?

Have you changed your mind? It's a bit hard to tell when you only permit yourself to repeat the same simple message over and over.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #141 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:53am freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:44am: Gandalf what made you change your mind on the whole self censorship thing? freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:44am: Have you changed your mind? having second thoughts now fd?
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Karnal

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #142 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 12:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:33am:

Karnal wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:23am:

I’m a bit surprised you think all that needs to be said is inappropriate and cultural sensitivities and that’s it. Cartoonists, publishers, people should rub it all out and think up something unoffensive, without even being told what it is that offends.

You seem to misunderstand. To be honest I'm not really sure what you are saying. My point is pretty simple in fact - cartoonists should be free to be dicks, and opponents should be free to object and say it was a stupid thing to do without being an underminer of free speech. Whether or not they give a good reason for their objection is neither here nor there.

Of course it’s here nor there. When you criticize someone else’s point of view, you have to say why. The only excuse I can think of for not doing this is if the point of view is so ridiculous and offensive as to be obvious.

But even here, I’m finding that, slowly, the ridiculous and offensive is taking over our mainstream discourse. Skills in responding to the ridiculous and offensive are becoming more important in the social media age.

I must admit, G, I can’t recall anyone saying something offended them without saying why. Can you?

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freediver

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #143 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:04pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:53am:

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:44am:

Gandalf what made you change your mind on the whole self censorship thing?

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:44am:

Have you changed your mind?

having second thoughts now fd?

Of course not. I am certain I should keep asking you this question.

By the way, what is the answer?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 100476	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #144 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:09pm What made you change your mind on the whole 2008 FD thing? You’ve never said.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #145 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 4:11pm

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 3:04pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:53am:

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:44am:

Gandalf what made you change your mind on the whole self censorship thing?

freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 11:44am:

Have you changed your mind?

having second thoughts now fd?

Of course not. I am certain I should keep asking you this question.

By the way, what is the answer?

So you are certain that I changed my mind about it, but at the same time you want to ask me if I did. And now you are asking again. Are you now admitting that all along you didn't know what you previously stated as fact?

Could this be a bit like when you stated as unquestioned fact that I wanted to kill gays for flaunting their sexuality mardi gras style - then when challenged you retreated to "actually I don't know what the hell you said"?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 100476	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #146 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 5:42pm I hope my question is easier to answer than FD’s, G. His are a piece of cake, so mine should be a breeze.
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freediver

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Re: the meaning of freedom
Reply #147 - Oct 11^th, 2015 at 8:48pm

Quote:

So you are certain that I changed my mind about it, but at the same time you want to ask me if I did. And now you are asking again. Are you now admitting that all along you didn't know what you previously stated as fact?

I know that you have previously stated you support self censorship, and have spent the last few pages avoiding talking about it. I have no idea exactly what has changed. I suspect it is the same views in different wrapping paper. Hence the questions you will not answer.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #148 - Oct 12^th, 2015 at 2:04pm freediver wrote on Oct 11^th, 2015 at 8:48pm: I know that you have previously stated you support self censorship So you keep saying. Honestly I don't recall. The last time you tried to prove this you ended up quoting yourself making the accusation. Do you have anything else?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 52029 At my desk.	Re: the meaning of freedom Reply #149 - Oct 12^th, 2015 at 6:26pm I don't recall trying to prove it previously. I only noticed it recently. You only decided recently you were opposed to self censorship.
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