TONY JONES: OK. Alright. Let's go to Gerard. He wants to respond to that.

GERARD HENDERSON: I mean, if you're going to decrease the living standards of people who are trying to get out of poverty in China and India, I don't think this is a very smart way to do it. And the idea, since these countries are very important to the whole issue of climate change, presumably, if the theory is correct - the idea that the leadership in Beijing and New Delhi is going to say, "Oh, my God, we're in trouble. Dr Collins thinks that what we're doing is sinful." I mean, ...

TONY JONES: It's more like what Pope Francis says that they would be concerned about rather than Paul Collins.

GERARD HENDERSON: Well, "Pope Francis thinks we're sinful." I mean, what do you think the Hindu leadership in India's going to say?: "Oh, my God, we've got to change our policy on this." Let's keep millions of Indians - hundreds of millions of Indians without electricity because the Pope thinks we might be sinning. It's not gonna work.

TONY JONES: Gerard, Cardinal Pell, as we know, went on the record in 2010, as I said earlier, decrying the scientific consensus on climate change and describing the climate movement as totalitarian and so on and so forth and actually arguing against putting any cost on pollution. So I'm just wondering if he's actually been trumped by Pope Francis here and if his influence in the Vatican is less than we imagine.

GERARD HENDERSON: Well, Cardinal Pell, as I understand, had been brought to the Vatican to clean up the mess. I mean, the Vatican's giving lectures to the rest of the world. It can't run its own state, it can't run its own economy. So Cardinal Pell's been brought in as number three from Australia with some of his advisors to clean up the economic mess and that's what he will do.

TONY JONES: But clearly they weren't listening to him on this subject - that's the point.

GERARD HENDERSON: Well they probably weren't. But then, I don't think it's going to affect his position at the Vatican because as I said, if you look at section 188, the Vatican is saying that they're not going to set scientific policy, and nor should they. If you look at their background, it doesn't really qualify them to set scientific policy and they're not going to do it. But this will be picked up and people'll say Pope Francis is saying the right thing and there are some nice things in the encyclical and we can hold hands and feel good about it on Sunday, those of us who go to church on Sunday ...