http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/breakfast/ayaan-hirsi-ali---heretic...

I listened to this interview this morning with great interest. I recalled previously when Soren had quoted Hirsi-Ali in support of his 'never ever' doctrine. The 'never ever' doctrine you might recall, is the idea that terrorism is inherent in Islam, and it will never ever be removed from it given its deep Islamic doctrinal roots. Muslims must, therefore, be condemned as dangerous, recalcitrant adherents to an un-reformable faith, and nothing short of renouncing their religion - along with condemning their prophet - will eliminate the threat that they pose.

Whats interesting is how strenuously Ali-Hirsi rejects the never-ever doctrine, and indeed her core theme in her latest book is how islam can and should be reformed so that terrorism and extremism is exorcised from the religion. She rejects the idea that there is some doctrinal barrier preventing the reformation of Islam - and in fact when it was put to her that talk of reform is rather hollow given that the root of the problem is Islam itself - she flatly and rigorously rejected such a notion. Not that she accepts the inherent worth of Islam (she is an atheist), and she is disdainful of the historical figure Mohammad, but for her the 'facts' of the matter are neither here nor there - ultimately what Islam becomes is something for the muslims themselves to decide, and she sees no barrier to the muslims constructing a peaceful, tolerant religion out of what she no doubt would regard as myth.

Her thesis broadly divides the muslim world into three categories - 1. the 'mecca' muslims - the vast majority of muslims who are peaceful, yet largely uninvolved in the theological debate surrounding what direction Islam should take, 2. the 'medina' muslims - a tiny minority of extremist jihadists and 3. a small, but (in her view) rapidly growing minority of reformers. She paints a picture of a fierce battle being waged by both the 'medina' muslims and the reformers to win over the hearts and minds of the majority mecca muslims. Its not unlike the thesis developed by the great arab scholar Bernard Lewis - who argues there is no doctrinal reason why Islam should necessarily be inherently violent and intolerant - and how it is shaped is a function of the prevailing cultures and philosophies of the day. And today, the theological debate in Islam is far more a function of prevailing narratives like western imperialism, occupation and secular arab dictators - than it is about objective interpretation of ancient texts.

I think the Islam critics could benefit greatly from listening to the arguments of their fellow-critics like Hirsi-Ali, and take a fresh appraisal of your stale 'never ever' doctrine. Start supporting the reformers in Islam, rather than denoucing or mocking them as fakes or otherwise an 'insignificant' force pissing in the wind. It has to start somewhere - and in fact it has already started.

There’s an easy answer to that, G.

Google: taqiyya.

Soren wrote on Apr 29^th, 2015 at 1:02pm:


you'll never ever get rid islam of terrorists.

islam is inherent with terrorism

Soren wrote on Apr 29^th, 2015 at 1:02pm:


I could repeat myself - or you could actually read the OP.

What a bunch of wishful thinking/ bullsh1t. From where does she make these pronouncements? From the relative safety of the West, just like you idiots. Your feigned objectivity is Western.

Quote:


what islam constitutes right now is something muslims decide on a daily basis.

qur'an 4.95: praises those muslims who travel to fight and give their wealth and lives to fight for allah as being superior muslims.

qur'an 8.67 categorically states a prophet of islam must be a mass murderer

qur'an 4.74: muslims who sell this life on earth (commit suicide) for the cause of allah are guaranteed a reward

qur'an 9.111: muslims who slay and are slain in the cause of allah are guaranteed entry into paradise

qur'an 5.32 and 5.33: muslims are unequivocally urged to torture and kill their fellow man if they consider he causes corruption.

The above are most likely about 5% of the total of literal commands in the qur'an, which doctrinally advocate muslims are to commit the foulest of human rights atrocities against their fellow man.

muslims have decided to follow those commands of islam which venerate depravity, torture and mass murder as the highest spiritual path they can take, they are the purest of muslims according to allah, islam, muhammad and the qur'an. (no one can truthfully argue against that fact)

Talk of reform is just talk.

True reform means tackling the tenets of allah, islam, muhammad and the qur'an, which are the root cause of the perversion and inhumanity practiced by muslims today.

I believe that muslims and their apologists will fight tooth and nail to prevent a true reform, therefore atrocities and depravity will reign supreme in islamic creed, as they always have done. 

 

Karnal wrote on May 1^st, 2015 at 4:42pm:


They have a vested interest in Islam not reforming. If Islam wasn't the bad guy, their life would have no meaning.

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 29^th, 2015 at 2:07pm:





polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 28^th, 2015 at 11:44am:




And I said that terrorism is inherent in Islam? Really??  I sometimes wonder whether you deliberately distort or if it's just the different, Islamic victim outlook that makes you distort things.

The desire to dominate is inherent in Islam, as its name never lets you forget: Submission. Historically, it has spread by violence and will not abide by frank criticism.
The non-violent Muslims are helpless and ineffective against the fanatics and purists. There is no reforming of Islam, only going back to one or other of its origins, Mecca or Medina. That is still thinking in terms of the 7th century, that is not reform.  There was nothing new in Islam in the 7th century and there hasn't been anything new (ie reforming) in it since.