Australian Politics Forum - solution to halal scam

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: solution to halal scam
Reply #255 - Jun 16^th, 2015 at 9:59pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 15^th, 2015 at 7:48pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 15^th, 2015 at 12:40pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 14^th, 2015 at 4:22pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 14^th, 2015 at 4:05pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 14^th, 2015 at 3:29pm:

Surely it is their choice? Tell me, if you lived in a Vegan society and you decided that you wanted to have meat, would you accept being told you couldn't eat meat? It is essentially the same here. You're dictating to a minority how they should slaughter their food. When I see you making the same dictates to Jews, I might be more willing to listen to you... Roll Eyes

So if I go to live in a Muslim country I can open my own Whisky A Go Go bar and hold wet niqab competitions on Friday evenings if that's my Western infidel choice?

You always have a choice, Soren. Depends on whether you're breaking the law or not. Would you be?

Community cohesion and harmony are not just about the law. There can be enormous social distance between various law-abiding communities and groups.
You cannot legislate for cohesion and affinity so do not overemphasise the legal aspects.

However, it is the legal aspects which codify what you wish to call "social cohesion", Soren. Without the written law, which we are celebrating the 800th anniversary of today, we would be ruled by the whims of kings and nobles. Essentially, without written law, you're subject to mob rule and fashion, Soren. Roll Eyes

The law is necessary but not sufficient. Thick that you are, even you understand that much.
Don't you, Brain?

Back to top

IP Logged

Brian Ross

Gold Member

Offline

Representative of me

Posts: 46311

Re: solution to halal scam
Reply #256 - Jun 17^th, 2015 at 9:49am

Soren wrote on Jun 16^th, 2015 at 9:59pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 15^th, 2015 at 7:48pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 15^th, 2015 at 12:40pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 14^th, 2015 at 4:22pm:

Soren wrote on Jun 14^th, 2015 at 4:05pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 14^th, 2015 at 3:29pm:

Surely it is their choice? Tell me, if you lived in a Vegan society and you decided that you wanted to have meat, would you accept being told you couldn't eat meat? It is essentially the same here. You're dictating to a minority how they should slaughter their food. When I see you making the same dictates to Jews, I might be more willing to listen to you... Roll Eyes

So if I go to live in a Muslim country I can open my own Whisky A Go Go bar and hold wet niqab competitions on Friday evenings if that's my Western infidel choice?

You always have a choice, Soren. Depends on whether you're breaking the law or not. Would you be?

Community cohesion and harmony are not just about the law. There can be enormous social distance between various law-abiding communities and groups.
You cannot legislate for cohesion and affinity so do not overemphasise the legal aspects.

However, it is the legal aspects which codify what you wish to call "social cohesion", Soren. Without the written law, which we are celebrating the 800th anniversary of today, we would be ruled by the whims of kings and nobles. Essentially, without written law, you're subject to mob rule and fashion, Soren. Roll Eyes

The law is necessary but not sufficient. Thick that you are, even you understand that much.
Don't you, Brain?

The law is more than sufficient, Soren. I've no desire to be subject to your whims of fancy! Roll Eyes

Back to top

It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using posting to the general forum now. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: solution to halal scam Reply #257 - Jun 17^th, 2015 at 11:43am Nonsense. You cannot legislate social cohesion and solidarity.
Back to top	IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: solution to halal scam
Reply #258 - Jun 18^th, 2015 at 12:06pm

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Jun 16^th, 2015 at 9:30am:

There are only about three approved Halal slaughterhouses in Australia, and they slaughter sheep, not cows. It is illegalto kill cows in Australia without stunning them first, and this is punishable by fines and/or jail time.

Most halal slaughter in Australia uses stunning - sheep, cattle and chickens, and is identical to non-halal slaughter in every respect apart from someone uttering the 'bismilah'. Even the chicken slaughterhouses which use the automatic razor blade has been deemed acceptable for halal.

There are I think about 3 small abbattoirs in Victoria that are allowed exemption from stunning for sheep only.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: solution to halal scam
Reply #259 - Jun 18^th, 2015 at 6:02pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 18^th, 2015 at 12:06pm:

Paki gob on a stick wrote on Jun 16^th, 2015 at 9:30am:

There are only about three approved Halal slaughterhouses in Australia, and they slaughter sheep, not cows. It is illegalto kill cows in Australia without stunning them first, and this is punishable by fines and/or jail time.

Most halal slaughter in Australia uses stunning - sheep, cattle and chickens, and is identical to non-halal slaughter in every respect apart from someone uttering the 'bismilah'. Even the chicken slaughterhouses which use the automatic razor blade has been deemed acceptable for halal.

There are I think about 3 small abbattoirs in Victoria that are allowed exemption from stunning for sheep only.

Hypothetical.

What happens if I certify that the bismillah was uttered - but then a year or two later it comes out that it wasn't every day, sometimes it wasn't for weeks and then it was for a week or two and then again not.

What is the significance or uttering (muttering) or not the bismillah? I mean what happens to the inner world of an Australian born university graduate Muslim who discovers that it wasn't always uttered?

Why not utter the bismillah at the table when the dish is served up and take that as halal? It is obviously no longer about the slaughter of the animal but entirely about the attitude of the people around halal.

Back to top

IP Logged

polite_gandalf

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 20027
Canberra
Gender: male

Re: solution to halal scam
Reply #260 - Jun 18^th, 2015 at 6:26pm

I realise you are sneering at me S, but I'll answer you nonetheless.

Soren wrote on Jun 18^th, 2015 at 6:02pm:

What happens if I certify that the bismillah was uttered - but then a year or two later it comes out that it wasn't every day, sometimes it wasn't for weeks and then it was for a week or two and then again not.

Its the responsibility of the certification supplier to ensure that all halal requirements are adhered to.

Soren wrote on Jun 18^th, 2015 at 6:02pm:

What is the significance or uttering (muttering) or not the bismillah?

It is an Islamic requirement.

Soren wrote on Jun 18^th, 2015 at 6:02pm:

I mean what happens to the inner world of an Australian born university graduate Muslim who discovers that it wasn't always uttered?

The conscience of the individual muslim will be clear if their intention is to consume halal food in good faith.

Soren wrote on Jun 18^th, 2015 at 6:02pm:

Why not utter the bismillah at the table when the dish is served up and take that as halal?

We do that as well. However uttering it during slaughter is specifically instructed in the Quran. Best you just deal with this fact.

Soren wrote on Jun 18^th, 2015 at 6:02pm:

It is obviously no longer about the slaughter of the animal but entirely about the attitude of the people around halal.

As I said, the conscience of the individual who conscientiously takes halal in good faith is perfectly clear. But thats not to say that due diligence is not required - all muslims, whether they are involved in the production of halal food, or just consumers - have a duty to ensure that what they do is halal compliant - by all reasonable means. Does that mean all muslim consumers must oversee the slaughter of every single chicken they might consume? Of course not. Common sense is applied. Thats why we rely on the certification system, and trust it because its done by representative and nationally recognised bodies. My faith is based on the fact that these bodies comprise of muslims who I have to trust are doing their due dilligence.

Back to top

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

IP Logged

freediver

Gold Member

Offline

www.ozpolitic.com

Posts: 53287
At my desk.

Re: solution to halal scam
Reply #261 - Jun 18^th, 2015 at 7:46pm

Quote:

We do that as well. However uttering it during slaughter is specifically instructed in the Quran. Best you just deal with this fact.

What about creating monopolies in foreign countries to charge people as much as you can get away with for approving your bismallah?

Quote:

Thats why we rely on the certification system, and trust it because its done by representative and nationally recognised bodies.

Are you suggesting that government involvement in the process is part of Islam?

Back to top

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

IP Logged

Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 46311	Re: solution to halal scam Reply #262 - Jun 18^th, 2015 at 10:17pm Soren wrote on Jun 17^th, 2015 at 11:43am: Nonsense. You cannot legislate social cohesion and solidarity. I've never claimed you could, Soren. However, the Law can be written to ensure that the conditions which promote those concepts are enabled much more easily. Without such laws, we just subject to whim and fancy.
Back to top	It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using posting to the general forum now. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk... IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53287 At my desk.	Re: solution to halal scam Reply #263 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 9:19am Quote: I've never claimed you could, Soren. Brian Ross wrote on Jun 17^th, 2015 at 9:49am: The law is more than sufficient, Soren.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

rhino

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 17179
Gender: male

Re: solution to halal scam
Reply #264 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 10:05am

UnSubRocky wrote on Jun 16^th, 2015 at 12:26am:

[

Halal supporters want to have animals killed by someone sweet-talking an animal with "Bismallah, Allahu Ackbar" soft chants. Then when the animal is calm enough, the person slits their throats, and lets the animal die over a few minutes.

Thats pretty much nonsense, cutting the blood supply to the brain by slitting the throat does not take minutes for the animal to die but seconds. Secondly, loss of brain function is instantaneous, there is no pain. Lets inject some fact into this argument.

Back to top

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53287 At my desk.	Re: solution to halal scam Reply #265 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 10:08am Do you have to cut both arteries for that to happen?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

rhino

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 17179
Gender: male

Re: solution to halal scam
Reply #266 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 10:12am

freediver wrote on Jun 19^th, 2015 at 10:08am:

Do you have to cut both arteries for that to happen?

No. Just as in humans.
http://www.veterinaryhandbook.com.au/ContentSection.aspx?id=85

The link does recommend both arteries but in practise that is not necassary to ensure blood flow disruption and lack of pain. Farmers have been killing animals this way without stunning forever. Ever seen a chicken running around without its head? Does anyone think it can still feel anything?

Back to top

« Last Edit: Jun 19^th, 2015 at 10:34am by rhino »

IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53287 At my desk.	Re: solution to halal scam Reply #267 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 11:05am That link you gave does not mention anything about pain.
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged

rhino Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17179 Gender:	Re: solution to halal scam Reply #268 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 11:13am freediver wrote on Jun 19^th, 2015 at 11:05am: That link you gave does not mention anything about pain. No it doesnt. Very observant of you. Its impossible to feel pain without blood flow to the brain. Can you guess why?
Back to top	IP Logged

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 53287 At my desk.	Re: solution to halal scam Reply #269 - Jun 19^th, 2015 at 11:14am Is this your own theory?
Back to top	People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words. IP Logged