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Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong (Read 12640 times)
issuevoter
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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #45 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 8:53am
 
I suppose its a bit late, but I would like to address one paragraph in the OP:

“Not so long ago Slavery was considered to be moral by those who practiced it. The Scramble for Africa is a wonderful example we can use to uproot this fallacy. If enslavement of the entire continent of Africa was a moral undertaking a few centuries ago, how have the Western civilization suddenly shifted its moral campus and say slavery is despicable? Is evolution this fast that under a few centuries we can go to?”

The entire continent was not enslaved, it is hyperbole to say so.

The history of the African slave trade goes back a long way. It existed on the east coast of Africa to Arabia before European Colonialism. That was an Arab trade. If we are only going to consider West Africa to the Americas, then it needs to be understood the rounding up was done between Senegal and Sierra Leone by establish black chieftains who had adopted Islam. They sold the slaves to the European traders, mainly Spanish and Portuguese, and smaller number of others, at points on the coast. These traders rarely went into the interior where they were hopelessly outnumbered. The black Muslims almost never sold another “believer” into slavery except for major crimes.

From the accounts that I have read, the traders did not question the morality of the trade. They were there to make money, and devil take the hindmost. And the black Muslim chieftains used the Koran to justify their right to capture and sell the more primitive black tribes that had not been exposed to Islam.
Certainly Western civilisation was evolving, but it did not happen as a moral upheaval. While slave traders, and more importantly, their investors, could keep the reality of the trade quiet, they could make money. They could easily argue a justification of some sort, but it was publicity that released British and later American public opinion. That is quite different to some kind of swing in morals. The distaste for the trade was already there in any fair-minded person.

And on the subject of Nietsche, I do want to like him, but he repeats himself so often it gets tedious.
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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #46 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 12:26pm
 
Emma wrote on Jul 3rd, 2015 at 12:18am:
We live in a wasteland of conflicting opinion, not fact.





Only those of you who have destroyed your moral compasses.

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #47 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 8:46pm
 
Amadd wrote on Jul 3rd, 2015 at 1:22am:
Then, there is perspective on offer.

Look after you and your own. If there is anything left over, then look after others.




Yes, and even this is problematic. You may have to do a generally perceived 'wrong' to do so.
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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #48 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 8:52pm
 
Soren wrote on Jul 3rd, 2015 at 12:26pm:
Emma wrote on Jul 3rd, 2015 at 12:18am:
We live in a wasteland of conflicting opinion, not fact.





Only those of you who have destroyed your moral compasses.



Well then who would you say has not done this today Soren.? Yourself perhaps?
Isn't that narcissistic.? You claim the higher ground?

We have a crazy world to deal with, every day. Look out for you and yours is the only rational response.  Perhaps you'd send your child to the Police and their tender mercies, if your child broke a Law.

I doubt that very much. But I could be wrong.  Smiley
Perhaps you would,  ?? Hmm?
Perhaps YOU KNOW the truth ! Will you share it.?

Your compass must be easily adjustable surely.
( ahem don't call me Shirley!!)
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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #49 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 8:52pm
 
Emma wrote on Jul 3rd, 2015 at 12:50am:
like I said already, you are welcome to your opinion.
I would agree that , in most respects, humans act like the societies in which we live are insane. Hence humans are generally, insane.

Therefore your statement is insane?

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #50 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 9:02pm
 
Tut tut Soren, don't try to deflect from what I have asked you. Share with us your wisdom.
It may be just as insane as mine. Give it a go old chap. Smiley
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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #51 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 9:14pm
 
Either we have shared norms and make a community, a society on he basis of those shared norms, values, mores - or we have nuffin' to do wiv each other and it's all about the rule of brute force.

You seem to be advocating, without realising it, for the re-primitivasion of the world. You seem to want to uncivilise the world because you think civilisation is barely disguised oppression.

I think that is bonkers stupid. Dissociate yourself.




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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #52 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 9:46pm
 
interesting.
I mean, it is interesting that you think civilisation is good, when,  really, we are not civilised at all. The jungle exists just out of sight, under our skins.

We are not civilised, whatever you think that means. We are simply somewhat sophisticated animals with an unrealistic view of ourselves as something 'greater' than the animal world. Hubris indeed.
Communities exist entirely for self-interest and a perception of safety in numbers.

IE  we have more weapons and money than you lot, so we get to call the shots. Power is the word, and it is an animalistic urge. Don't try to make it something more.
That is simple enough to understand shirley.

We do good when we can, but we do much more harm than we should.
When do you think we became 'civilised'.?

'Cos I don't see much good in our civilisation. It is a shaky house of cards that can fall at any time. Just like all the civilisations before us. WE are not superior in any way to what has gone before. We just have bigger brains, but are still ruled by the old instincts.

We are primitive, and we are not able to deny that.  It shows in our actions and chosen beliefs, every day.

Our old lizard brain still rules.


.
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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #53 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 9:54pm
 
Plus you still haven't answered my question.
Deflection once again.

Would you turn in your own child to the tender mercies of the Police, if they had broken the Law.?  Would it depend on WHAT law.? Would that matter.?

After all, the POLICE and the LAW, represents our civilisation, more than any other man-made construct.  Can't have anarchy can we.?  Perhaps you think there is no anarchy in this, our civilisation.
Look again.

How does YOUR moral compass work in the world as we know it?. Do the circumstances matter.?
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« Last Edit: Jul 3rd, 2015 at 10:00pm by Emma »  

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #54 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 10:19pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Jul 3rd, 2015 at 8:53am:
I suppose its a bit late, but I would like to address one paragraph in the OP:

“Not so long ago Slavery was considered to be moral by those who practiced it. The Scramble for Africa is a wonderful example we can use to uproot this fallacy. If enslavement of the entire continent of Africa was a moral undertaking a few centuries ago, how have the Western civilization suddenly shifted its moral campus and say slavery is despicable? Is evolution this fast that under a few centuries we can go to?”

The entire continent was not enslaved, it is hyperbole to say so.

The history of the African slave trade goes back a long way. It existed on the east coast of Africa to Arabia before European Colonialism. That was an Arab trade. If we are only going to consider West Africa to the Americas, then it needs to be understood the rounding up was done between Senegal and Sierra Leone by establish black chieftains who had adopted Islam. They sold the slaves to the European traders, mainly Spanish and Portuguese, and smaller number of others, at points on the coast. These traders rarely went into the interior where they were hopelessly outnumbered. The black Muslims almost never sold another “believer” into slavery except for major crimes.

From the accounts that I have read, the traders did not question the morality of the trade. They were there to make money, and devil take the hindmost. And the black Muslim chieftains used the Koran to justify their right to capture and sell the more primitive black tribes that had not been exposed to Islam.
Certainly Western civilisation was evolving, but it did not happen as a moral upheaval. While slave traders, and more importantly, their investors, could keep the reality of the trade quiet, they could make money. They could easily argue a justification of some sort, but it was publicity that released British and later American public opinion. That is quite different to some kind of swing in morals. The distaste for the trade was already there in any fair-minded person.

And on the subject of Nietsche, I do want to like him, but he repeats himself so often it gets tedious.



Slavery.?  It is bigger today than it ever was in the past.

Fair-minded people are simply unaware, and/or are unwilling to acknowledge this truth.
Trafficking humans and slavery is way up there in the statosphere when it comes to participation and profit in our civilised world.
Please do not think it ended when the UK and then America turned against it. It simply went underground.. and therefore, became even more profitable.  Sad
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« Last Edit: Jul 3rd, 2015 at 10:28pm by Emma »  

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #55 - Jul 3rd, 2015 at 11:13pm
 
gone to bed? Thinking about it? Or have NO answer.! Smiley
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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #56 - Jul 4th, 2015 at 10:17am
 
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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #57 - Jul 4th, 2015 at 10:49pm
 
Soren, I won't bother looking at the vid. I thought you would repond personally, not shuffle it off to someone else. And an intellectual POM at that.!!  Smiley Of course they will espouse the greatness of their Empire, and the good it did.

I guess YOU don't have a reasonable reply.
WHY?
Because you are unable to deny the truth. Which is a good thing. Smiley

ah OK I'll have a quick look.

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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #58 - Jul 4th, 2015 at 10:58pm
 
OK I saw a bit, and all he can talk about is EUROPEAN CIVILISATION, with all its science and architecture  etc etc. BUT he admits we nearly lost this small piece of human history when nearly over run by the hordes out of Asia.!! 
Good GRIEF.  Roll Eyes

Of course he says nothing about the foundations of the European supremacy, which, going back a bit, was largely driven by the Middle East. 
Or, if he did, I couldn't be bothered going that far. And NOTE.. it is a PERSONAL view.  That doesn't make it anything but gratuitous patting oneself on the back.  Tongue
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Re: Nietzsche Was Right: There Is No Right and Wrong
Reply #59 - Jul 6th, 2015 at 3:43pm
 
Emma wrote on Jul 3rd, 2015 at 10:19pm:
issuevoter wrote on Jul 3rd, 2015 at 8:53am:
I suppose its a bit late, but I would like to address one paragraph in the OP:

“Not so long ago Slavery was considered to be moral by those who practiced it. The Scramble for Africa is a wonderful example we can use to uproot this fallacy. If enslavement of the entire continent of Africa was a moral undertaking a few centuries ago, how have the Western civilization suddenly shifted its moral campus and say slavery is despicable? Is evolution this fast that under a few centuries we can go to?”

The entire continent was not enslaved, it is hyperbole to say so.

The history of the African slave trade goes back a long way. It existed on the east coast of Africa to Arabia before European Colonialism. That was an Arab trade. If we are only going to consider West Africa to the Americas, then it needs to be understood the rounding up was done between Senegal and Sierra Leone by establish black chieftains who had adopted Islam. They sold the slaves to the European traders, mainly Spanish and Portuguese, and smaller number of others, at points on the coast. These traders rarely went into the interior where they were hopelessly outnumbered. The black Muslims almost never sold another “believer” into slavery except for major crimes.

From the accounts that I have read, the traders did not question the morality of the trade. They were there to make money, and devil take the hindmost. And the black Muslim chieftains used the Koran to justify their right to capture and sell the more primitive black tribes that had not been exposed to Islam.
Certainly Western civilisation was evolving, but it did not happen as a moral upheaval. While slave traders, and more importantly, their investors, could keep the reality of the trade quiet, they could make money. They could easily argue a justification of some sort, but it was publicity that released British and later American public opinion. That is quite different to some kind of swing in morals. The distaste for the trade was already there in any fair-minded person.

And on the subject of Nietsche, I do want to like him, but he repeats himself so often it gets tedious.



Slavery.?  It is bigger today than it ever was in the past.

Fair-minded people are simply unaware, and/or are unwilling to acknowledge this truth.
Trafficking humans and slavery is way up there in the statosphere when it comes to participation and profit in our civilised world.
Please do not think it ended when the UK and then America turned against it. It simply went underground.. and therefore, became even more profitable.  Sad


No contest. I was simply addressing one paragraph in the OP which is highly representative of popular perceptions.
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